China has turned Xinjiang into a police state like no other • Hacker News Board

Re: China has turned Xinjiang into a police state like no other

#141

Post by graeme » Sat, Jun 02, 2018, 10:56 PM UTC

kinsomo wrote: post #138

Laforet wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I very much doubt it is sustainable. The cost of policing is quite substantial and the productivity lost is hard to replace which adds to the cost. What we are seeing today is essentially a low intensity conflict[0] not unlike what took place in white Rhodesia/Namibia, Northern Ireland during the troubles, etc. There is a economic reason why these conflicts could not last indefinitely, no matter what ideologies drive…

> I very much doubt it is sustainable. The cost of policing is quite substantial and the productivity lost is hard to replace which adds to the cost. Why do you think the Chinese government can't sustain the cost? Intensive policing is manpower intensive, and China presently has manpower to spare. They also don't have to deal with democratic pressures to contain the cost and redirect the savings to programs that bene…

As automation reduced societal labour requirements, will that make societal repression via human labour more feasible?

Re: China has turned Xinjiang into a police state like no other

#142

Post by cromwellian » Sat, Jun 02, 2018, 10:59 PM UTC

dvfjsdhgfv wrote: post #117

thevardanian wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason we don't accuse Buddhism when a Buddhist commits violence is because very rarely do they explicitly say they're committing whatever they're doing in the name of their religion, nor in anyway to propagate their religion. That is to say, you don't have a doctrinal, linear, absolute, form of religiosity that demands conversion, demands superiority, demands singularity as is fundamental to Islam. Muhammad and…

> In a similar sense not all religions are the same. This is the one single point that is very hard to accept by the mainstream. Currently, the doctrine of all cultures being equal is something universal. If we accept the opposite view, there are many dangers on the way. Who is going to decide which culture/religion is better? By what criteria? What are the consequences? It's safer to declare equality, and this is wh…

Well, it's quite clear they are not the same. But it's also clear that organized violence often arises out of tribalism and the devaluing of the out-group, and that our tendency towards tribalism can be extracted out of nearly anything we share in common, including religious doctrine even if that religious doctrine teaches peace or tolerance Buddhism isn't universally non-violent although Orientalism usually perceives it that way, and branches of it have become militaristic, on the flip side, branches of Islam like Sufi Islam, are perceived as more pacifist.

You're making the argument that cultural relativism is wrong. I'm making the argument that cultural supremacy often leads you to wrong reasoning about causes and effects, and ergo, bad policies. Are the Palestinians committing terrorist acts because they're Islamic? They're relatively more secular and cosmopolitan than some other Muslim communities, and Palestinian Christians also commit violence. If you ascribe their violence to religious grievances alone, then you are in a quandary. There's no way to solve the current situation without changing their religion. But if you recognize it as nationalistic and a response to geo-political grievances, then there is a political solution that may not require millions of people to be reprogrammed to a different religion.

Imagine if we ignored the Holocaust, and simply ascribed Jewish terrorism in the British Palestinian territories in the 1940s as a manifestation of Judaism -- that God gave them this land? Under that interpretation, it's scripture, and not the reaction to historic persecution, that drives the motivation to carve out a Jewish state. And yes, some far-right Jewish extremists believe this, but that's not the majority, and so you can't paint all of Judaism in this way, and we don't.

But we do paint all of Islam this way, and as a result, we engage in bad, immoral foreign policy.

Re: China has turned Xinjiang into a police state like no other

#143

Post by analog31 » Sat, Jun 02, 2018, 11:00 PM UTC

kinsomo wrote: post #138

Laforet wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I very much doubt it is sustainable. The cost of policing is quite substantial and the productivity lost is hard to replace which adds to the cost. What we are seeing today is essentially a low intensity conflict[0] not unlike what took place in white Rhodesia/Namibia, Northern Ireland during the troubles, etc. There is a economic reason why these conflicts could not last indefinitely, no matter what ideologies drive…

> I very much doubt it is sustainable. The cost of policing is quite substantial and the productivity lost is hard to replace which adds to the cost. Why do you think the Chinese government can't sustain the cost? Intensive policing is manpower intensive, and China presently has manpower to spare. They also don't have to deal with democratic pressures to contain the cost and redirect the savings to programs that bene…

In my view, they are not sustaining the cost. We are, by buying their products. If totalitarianism becomes universal, that's when it ceases to be sustainable.

The ruling class has luxuries that they could not have developed for themselves without them being broadly available. I'm thinking of things like cell phones, the Internet, and possibly the money system.

Parasites need a viable host.

Re: China has turned Xinjiang into a police state like no other

#144

Post by Laforet » Sat, Jun 02, 2018, 11:00 PM UTC

mc32 wrote: post #108

Laforet wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I very much doubt it is sustainable. The cost of policing is quite substantial and the productivity lost is hard to replace which adds to the cost. What we are seeing today is essentially a low intensity conflict[0] not unlike what took place in white Rhodesia/Namibia, Northern Ireland during the troubles, etc. There is a economic reason why these conflicts could not last indefinitely, no matter what ideologies drive…

I think if the state enlists and coopts a sufficient percentage of the local population, then it can work indefinitely, if the gov't provides enough in terms of basic needs. The idea of local administrative committees and youth organizations as an arm to make others toe the line is not a foreign concept to the CCP.

There really isn't one when most of the Uighur population is impoverished if not otherwise disaffected, and the local Han population are effectively incentivised to leave Xinjiang for better prospects elsewhere. Between 2010 and 2013, there have been 400,000 fewer Han Chinese living in Xinjiang through a combination of natural population decline and emigration[0]; this represents a solid 2% of total population and there is no evidence to suggest the trend is slowing down.

Heavy policing may put a lid on the problem for now but in the long run it will only undo several generations of hard work pacifying the region.

[0]:http://www.cqvip.com/qk/83491x/201503/665772571.html, the text is paywalled but a short excerpt containing relevant information can be viewed at https://www.1xuezhe.exuezhe.com/Qk/art/591377?dbcode=1&flag=...

Re: China has turned Xinjiang into a police state like no other

#145

Post by Laforet » Sat, Jun 02, 2018, 11:01 PM UTC

kinsomo wrote: post #138

Laforet wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I very much doubt it is sustainable. The cost of policing is quite substantial and the productivity lost is hard to replace which adds to the cost. What we are seeing today is essentially a low intensity conflict[0] not unlike what took place in white Rhodesia/Namibia, Northern Ireland during the troubles, etc. There is a economic reason why these conflicts could not last indefinitely, no matter what ideologies drive…

> I very much doubt it is sustainable. The cost of policing is quite substantial and the productivity lost is hard to replace which adds to the cost. Why do you think the Chinese government can't sustain the cost? Intensive policing is manpower intensive, and China presently has manpower to spare. They also don't have to deal with democratic pressures to contain the cost and redirect the savings to programs that bene…

>China presently has manpower to spare.

And in twenty years they will not, that is the crux of the issue.

Re: China has turned Xinjiang into a police state like no other

#146

Post by kinsomo » Sat, Jun 02, 2018, 11:01 PM UTC

nomass wrote: post #135

surfanddurf wrote: post #31

I think we, as the world, need to counter this by 1.) Start moving factories out China, back into your local country. It could be an upgrade for companies to upgrade to more automated factories. Furthermore, it fights against China's agenda of 'Made in China in 2025', which they expect to make....everything in China. 2.) Shame companies that are investing further in China, destroying jobs in your local country. 3.) S…

I agree but how should this actually work? I feel like we have no options here. Everything comes from China, beginning with my mobile devices.

> I agree but how should this actually work? I feel like we have no options here. Everything comes from China, beginning with my mobile devices.

One option is to more or less emulate China. It's factories were built over the last 30 or so years. There's no reason that other countries couldn't start to replicate those capabilities and supply chains over a similar time period. It would probably require more automation to be economical in the West, however.

The hard part with that will be to force Western profit-uber-alles corporations to comply.

Re: China has turned Xinjiang into a police state like no other

#147

Post by pram » Sat, Jun 02, 2018, 11:02 PM UTC

cf498 wrote: post #104

oblio wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One could argue that “totalitarianism” was the default government form for most of history. The problem is, the higher we go on the Maslow pyramid, the more likely it is for it to fail. You just can’t have a huge mass of creative, inventive people without them complaining about leadership (and wanting to improve it). And totalitarianism by definition has problems accepting criticism. The only way for totalitarianism…

>The only way for totalitarianism to “work” is if the rulers are both much smarter than the population as a whole and also benevolent. I dont think thats realistic anymore. Once they are able to hit first and hit hard when opposition forms, they are pretty much untouchable. The whole argument, of autocratic regimes having a higher chance of collapsing the longer the reign looks like a naive outdated approach to me. I…

We had many totalitarian, mass surveillance states collapse practically overnight less than 30 years ago.

Re: China has turned Xinjiang into a police state like no other

#148

Post by siidooloo » Sat, Jun 02, 2018, 11:02 PM UTC

em3rgent0rdr wrote: post #128

oblio wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One could argue that “totalitarianism” was the default government form for most of history. The problem is, the higher we go on the Maslow pyramid, the more likely it is for it to fail. You just can’t have a huge mass of creative, inventive people without them complaining about leadership (and wanting to improve it). And totalitarianism by definition has problems accepting criticism. The only way for totalitarianism…

> "only way for totalitarianism to “work” is if the rulers are both much smarter than the population as a whole" The party can pick the smart people from population to join.

That didn’t work for the USSR, why would it work for China? As long as some things are off limits / as long as people know they arn’t alowed to research this or that, then they’ll be at a long term disadvantage to those that do.

China was here before. Cutting yourself off from the world just means you eventually find yourself having fallen behind everyone else.

Re: China has turned Xinjiang into a police state like no other

#149

Post by amaccuish » Sat, Jun 02, 2018, 11:03 PM UTC

imbokodo wrote: post #82

tc wrote: post #58

In the West we have a false sense of security that totalitarianism will inevitably fail. We've seen so many examples of fallen tyrannical states. But many ideas fail the first few times they're tried. China seems committed to making totalitarianism "work." It's hard to think of any more dangerous invention. Even nuclear weapons aren't as dangerous as a sustainable model for modern tyrannical government. This is an in…

The Marxist/Maoist idea of the Chinese would be that the government is just part of the superstructure on top of the base. The base being the current state of the forces of production in their continual self-evolution and reinvention, and the relations of production flowing from that. In other words, the economic system determines the political system. When hunter-gatherers became farmers, the political system change…

You're being downvoted because what you've said is an inconvenient truth for a lot of Americans it seems.

Re: China has turned Xinjiang into a police state like no other

#150

Post by amaccuish » Sat, Jun 02, 2018, 11:05 PM UTC

purple-again wrote: post #10

This paywall is defeating all my usual tricks, can someone help me out? On an iPhone and the web link didn’t work, nor did going through twitter or Facebook. Thanks in advance for any help.

I'm on Firefox but I assume it works for most browsers. Just change the site permissions so it can't store cookies. Then it'll work everytime you visit an article there. Works for Wired and others.