Why We Engage in FLOSS: Answers from Core Developers • Hacker News Board

Re: Why We Engage in FLOSS: Answers from Core Developers

#21

Post by KirinDave » Sat, Jun 02, 2018, 4:02 PM UTC

SiempreViernes wrote: post #20

KirinDave wrote: post #10

I've never understood it. I've only had horrific experiences with my open source efforts. From the simplest cases like being ignored on PRs and tickets to mockery in social circles for algorithmic mistakes to finding out my work was enabling bad people to finding out people were misrepresenting my employment status while using my work in violation of the license, I don't think I've ever once had a positive experience…

How are you experiences of other volunteer work?

I've done volunteer teaching and some volunteer civil work and those were fun, mostly. Especially the teaching part. Is your thought, "Perhaps this person just doesn't enjoy volunteer work?"

Re: Why We Engage in FLOSS: Answers from Core Developers

#22

Post by ppseafield » Sat, Jun 02, 2018, 4:05 PM UTC

craftyguy wrote: post #15

KirinDave wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps, I should not be surprised the first response here is, "Well maybe that's your fault for not having a crystal ball which can predict the actions of strangers." That attitude is part of the problem. Similarly, "My experience was fine, so clearly your bad experience needs to be invalidated" is a toxic attitude.

Well, there are literally millions of people who don't share your same experience, so rather than claim that everyone is wrong and open source development doesn't work, maybe you are doing something wrong. Just a suggestion, because it totally does work for many people. Maybe you just have to find the right group of people to work with. There are a few shitty projects, but you'll find bad apples in many areas of life…

Now he's contributed his impression and every comment is browbeating him or criticising him. Sounds like he got very unlucky. Wouldn't it be worth it to discuss how that could be mitigated?

Also, people always forget the rest of that phrase: A bad apple spoils the bunch. Pretty important nuance!

Re: Why We Engage in FLOSS: Answers from Core Developers

#23

Post by jancsika » Sat, Jun 02, 2018, 4:05 PM UTC

KirinDave wrote: post #10

I've never understood it. I've only had horrific experiences with my open source efforts. From the simplest cases like being ignored on PRs and tickets to mockery in social circles for algorithmic mistakes to finding out my work was enabling bad people to finding out people were misrepresenting my employment status while using my work in violation of the license, I don't think I've ever once had a positive experience…

> From the simplest cases like being ignored on PRs and tickets [...]

Yes, that's unfortunately a big problem in FLOSS. It will take a big effort to change that. But I think there are some communities who take mentorship seriously that are incrementally improving this.

> to mockery in social circles for algorithmic mistakes [...]

That's 100% unacceptable.

Did this happen on a public mailing list? If so, can you post a link?

> to finding out my work was enabling bad people [...]

I can't figure out what this would mean, or how it is relevant to open source as opposed to proprietary software.

> to finding out people were misrepresenting my employment status while using my work in violation of the license, I don't think I've ever once had a positive experience with open source as a producer.

Those last two seem exceptional. But you should report the person who was mocking you for making a mistake. That kind of behavior has no place in FLOSS and should be stamped out.

Re: Why We Engage in FLOSS: Answers from Core Developers

#24

Post by nickpsecurity » Sat, Jun 02, 2018, 4:12 PM UTC

tonto wrote: post #18

KirinDave wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps, I should not be surprised the first response here is, "Well maybe that's your fault for not having a crystal ball which can predict the actions of strangers." That attitude is part of the problem. Similarly, "My experience was fine, so clearly your bad experience needs to be invalidated" is a toxic attitude.

Your original comment is pretty toxic. What do you want to imply by your original anecdotal comment other than grandstanding? This is a research article, and you could suggest that the researchers look at more negative aspects of open source that could affect developers but to say basically open source is terrible is ridiculous

If they're doing research, they'd need the negative reports for accuracy. KirinDave would be one data point among others in that. We know they exist since Nadia Eghbal did collect that information:

https://medium.com/@nayafia/how-i-stumbled-upon-the-internet...

If anything, people should see the big picture of the range of experiences they might have so they're not being misled into getting into something that's a gamble. It might be good for them, it might be really bad, and it might be something in between. FOSS promoters don't usually sell it that way, though.

Re: Why We Engage in FLOSS: Answers from Core Developers

#25

Post by teddyh » Sat, Jun 02, 2018, 4:19 PM UTC

KirinDave wrote: post #10

I've never understood it. I've only had horrific experiences with my open source efforts. From the simplest cases like being ignored on PRs and tickets to mockery in social circles for algorithmic mistakes to finding out my work was enabling bad people to finding out people were misrepresenting my employment status while using my work in violation of the license, I don't think I've ever once had a positive experience…

Since you don’t give verifiable links to examples so we can judge for ourselves, and your reported experiences don’t match the majority’s, the rest of us are more or less forced to believe the simplest explanation:

There’s a known principle that goes “If you think that everyone around you is an asshole, they’re not the assholes, you are.”. This would be the simplest explanation in this case, since we don’t know anything else about you.

Of course, you could easily remedy this by posting enough examples to change our minds, but until you do, Occam’s razor must reign supreme.

Re: Why We Engage in FLOSS: Answers from Core Developers

#26

Post by detaro » Sat, Jun 02, 2018, 4:24 PM UTC

teddyh wrote: post #25

KirinDave wrote: post #10

I've never understood it. I've only had horrific experiences with my open source efforts. From the simplest cases like being ignored on PRs and tickets to mockery in social circles for algorithmic mistakes to finding out my work was enabling bad people to finding out people were misrepresenting my employment status while using my work in violation of the license, I don't think I've ever once had a positive experience…

Since you don’t give verifiable links to examples so we can judge for ourselves, and your reported experiences don’t match the majority’s, the rest of us are more or less forced to believe the simplest explanation: There’s a known principle that goes “If you think that everyone around you is an asshole, they’re not the assholes, you are .”. This would be the simplest explanation in this case, since we don’t know anyt…

Or they were just unlucky in their in their interactions (I doubt many people would claim that all interactions in Open Source are good), or perceive some things differently than others, or ...

there's more than enough Open-Source maintainers complaining about bad interactions. Indeed many of the parents complaints are also reflected in the study as things people experienced as barriers to contributing. Luckily for many of them the good outweighs the bad, but that doesn't mean those for which it doesn't are automatically assholes.

It's especially bad to justify this broad brush with "minority experience".

Re: Why We Engage in FLOSS: Answers from Core Developers

#27

Post by KirinDave » Sat, Jun 02, 2018, 4:27 PM UTC

teddyh wrote: post #25

KirinDave wrote: post #10

I've never understood it. I've only had horrific experiences with my open source efforts. From the simplest cases like being ignored on PRs and tickets to mockery in social circles for algorithmic mistakes to finding out my work was enabling bad people to finding out people were misrepresenting my employment status while using my work in violation of the license, I don't think I've ever once had a positive experience…

Since you don’t give verifiable links to examples so we can judge for ourselves, and your reported experiences don’t match the majority’s, the rest of us are more or less forced to believe the simplest explanation: There’s a known principle that goes “If you think that everyone around you is an asshole, they’re not the assholes, you are .”. This would be the simplest explanation in this case, since we don’t know anyt…

Nothing I can do can change the outcome either way, teddyh. I suspect you've already decided how you feel about me.

People are seeing a candid discussion of subjective experience as an indictment of theirs. This is another action I regret. I thought perhaps a related but dissenting viewpoint would have value to the conversation, but I guess not. This conversation itself is an example of the kind of negative experience I'm talking about.

I'm sorry my post offended you. It wasn't my intent.

Re: Why We Engage in FLOSS: Answers from Core Developers

#28

Post by craftyguy » Sat, Jun 02, 2018, 4:34 PM UTC

KirinDave wrote: post #17

craftyguy wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, there are literally millions of people who don't share your same experience, so rather than claim that everyone is wrong and open source development doesn't work, maybe you are doing something wrong. Just a suggestion, because it totally does work for many people. Maybe you just have to find the right group of people to work with. There are a few shitty projects, but you'll find bad apples in many areas of life…

> so rather than claim that everyone is wrong I didn't. This is your inability to tolerate a different viewpoint. I didn't say you had a bad experience, just that I can't relate to the good ones. I qualified every statement with _I_, _my experience_, and _feel_ and you're still willing to stand up and argue with me about it. And that is, in fact, a toxic attitude. You're arguing that I'm neither allowed to have nor r…

Stop interpretting everything as a personal attack. It makes it seem like you were the bad apple, by immediately conflating contradictory statements and experiences into personal attacks. I would not want to work with such a person, in an open source project or otherwise.

I merely suggested that your bad experiences might have been because of the projects you worked with, so a general statement of "open source bad" might be a bit extreme because many others have had positive experiences. I'm sorry you had a shitty experience working on open source projects. That sucks for everyone. Not all open source projects have shitty leaders, but some do, and it's not always obvious which ones those are until you've invested some non-zero amount of time/effort into it.

Re: Why We Engage in FLOSS: Answers from Core Developers

#29

Post by KirinDave » Sat, Jun 02, 2018, 4:34 PM UTC

jancsika wrote: post #23

KirinDave wrote: post #10

I've never understood it. I've only had horrific experiences with my open source efforts. From the simplest cases like being ignored on PRs and tickets to mockery in social circles for algorithmic mistakes to finding out my work was enabling bad people to finding out people were misrepresenting my employment status while using my work in violation of the license, I don't think I've ever once had a positive experience…

> From the simplest cases like being ignored on PRs and tickets [...] Yes, that's unfortunately a big problem in FLOSS. It will take a big effort to change that. But I think there are some communities who take mentorship seriously that are incrementally improving this. > to mockery in social circles for algorithmic mistakes [...] That's 100% unacceptable. Did this happen on a public mailing list? If so, can you post…

> I can't figure out what this would mean, or how it is relevant to open source as opposed to proprietary software.

It's not unique to open source.

> Those last two seem exceptional. But you should report the person who was mocking you for making a mistake. That kind of behavior has no place in FLOSS and should be stamped out.

There is a reason I switched away from the MIT license. Someone unrelated was using my name and my work to give their startup legitimacy. It paid off, too, they are a sustainable company now. Not much I can do about it.

Re: Why We Engage in FLOSS: Answers from Core Developers

#30

Post by hobs » Sat, Jun 02, 2018, 4:34 PM UTC

teddyh wrote: post #25

KirinDave wrote: post #10

I've never understood it. I've only had horrific experiences with my open source efforts. From the simplest cases like being ignored on PRs and tickets to mockery in social circles for algorithmic mistakes to finding out my work was enabling bad people to finding out people were misrepresenting my employment status while using my work in violation of the license, I don't think I've ever once had a positive experience…

Since you don’t give verifiable links to examples so we can judge for ourselves, and your reported experiences don’t match the majority’s, the rest of us are more or less forced to believe the simplest explanation: There’s a known principle that goes “If you think that everyone around you is an asshole, they’re not the assholes, you are .”. This would be the simplest explanation in this case, since we don’t know anyt…

If you find yourself feeling the need to call someone an asshole and require evidence of someone else's personal experiences, consider that leaving well enough alone is the right approach.

Especially when that person is politely reporting experiences with behavior that from my eyes, resembles yours exactly.