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Leaving .net

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Re: Leaving .net

#151

Post by DennisP »

ihumanable wrote: post #9

I can't agree more with the observations on MVC. It's really a symptom of .Net and Microsoft locking in the vast majority of inexperienced users with overly abstract components. Developers fresh out of college who were taught .Net in school and get a job in it become experts at Partial PostBacks and Code Behinds and binding data to the latest whiz-bang GridDataAwesomeControlForTheWin. The problem I've seen time and a…

> Partial PostBacks and Code Behinds and binding data to the latest whiz-bang GridDataAwesomeControlForTheWin

That's WebForms. I hate it too. MVC makes it all go away.

Re: Leaving .net

#152

Post by mahmud »

zentechen wrote: post #146
mahmud wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was Microsoft's answer to Java, with hindsight 20/20. I wanted to see their take on portable bytecode, JIT techniques, security, distributed computing, performance, etc. Nearly everybody there was burned by MS's short attention span when it comes to system libraries (OLE, COM, DCOM, DCOM+ for one, and the mess that is data-access libraries, OLE-DB,MDAC, ODBC, ADO, Jet, etc.) We wanted closure, at least I knew I di…

Perl? You serious? Are you developing text-based system?

My first Perl application, after I put my Win3 app on hold, was a desktop GUI app for printing mailing labels. It had a builtin list building engine that scraped counties throughout Virginia and found information on new home buyers, and applications for building renovation.

It took me 20 days to develop. Perl/Tk.

If memory service me right, and I really could be wrong .. I think I must have been the first one in the world to hack together a bridge between Perl and Office 2000, because I had a developer preview. ActivePerl .. now that was a delightful platform.

Perl empowered me. If it wasn't for Perl, I might have quit software altogether and became a philosophy major, or worse, a mathematician.

Re: Leaving .net

#153

Post by mahmud »

lelele wrote: post #68
jacquesm wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Don't ever say you develop applications in Clojure, just say you develop in Java. That would be lying though, and it could get you in to a whole pile of hot water. Such 'technical tricks' may work a few times but eventually you'll have a real problem.

I understand your suspicions: switching perspective is something techies have a difficult time with. Is Arc a language or is it a bunch of macros on top of MzScheme? It depends on how you see it. Clojure is 100% compatible with Java, both ways in a straightforward manner, so you can easily argue that it's still Java. That's been the smartest design decision ever by its designer. You have to understand whether your cl…

And my own experience concurs with lelele.

Re: Leaving .net

#154

Post by Tamerlin »

sofuture wrote: post #80
ihumanable wrote: post #9

I can't agree more with the observations on MVC. It's really a symptom of .Net and Microsoft locking in the vast majority of inexperienced users with overly abstract components. Developers fresh out of college who were taught .Net in school and get a job in it become experts at Partial PostBacks and Code Behinds and binding data to the latest whiz-bang GridDataAwesomeControlForTheWin. The problem I've seen time and a…

" There are probably a lot of 9-5ers who could have that switch flipped and go from code monkey to craftsmen, but they are stuck doing WebForms and have never really got bitten by the curiosity bug " That's disingenuous bullshit. Hackers start a lot earlier than "fresh out of college". Disinterested coders aren't lost souls led astray by the ways of .Net, they're disinterested coders; they'd write Ruby with just as l…

I agree -- there are a lot of disinterested 9-5ers who are burned out by their environment, not the technology.

Re: Leaving .net

#155

Post by mahmud »

kenjackson wrote: post #117
mahmud wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, if you want your corporate productivity app to be Office certified. The UI guidelines are pretty clear about how it should look and behave. First MS pushed the new CommonControls from IE on us, then there was an Office update, then XP came out with new UI elements, like rebars. With every new release of Windows, Office or IE, the UI got tweaked. Pretty quickly you couldn't even use vanilla C++ anymore to embed t…

And why is that mahmud? Because most developers, by a HUGE margin, wanted to this in VB. And in VB hosting COM controls in your app was super simple. What I send to see are two classes of MS developers: 1) Those who use the MS stack, but realize they're using tools that they build with and on. 2) Those who use the MS stack, but get stuck thinking that it is the only tool available, period. The second group of develop…

That diagnosis about the second group fits me to a T. 100% correct you are, Sir.

I have been a programmer longer, mostly cracking games and writing x86 asm and DOS stuff with Turbo C; but I became a developer on Microsoft's platform and under their auspices.

After Microsoft, I went through a few years of insane productivity and deep, god-level hacking. I have chronicled those stories else on HN. Here is one:

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=972423

After I found "success" elsewhere as a programmer. When I finally saw a product of mine being used, shipped, bought, deployed. When I started seeing bug-reports, requests for bulk prices, discounts, and yes, piracy. That's when I made peace with Microsoft and went back to using Windows. I am typing this on XP.

They're an OK company with an OK platform, just not when you're young and impressionable. Beware of the bastards and use portable, 3rd party libraries.

I am done with this thread ..

Re: Leaving .net

#156

Post by batasrki »

jacquesm wrote: post #111
batasrki wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry, but I don't agree. There is no reason why my customers need to know in what language the solution is developed in. Besides, Ruby powers many highly visible websites and web apps. If I'd be losing a sale because I develop in Ruby and NOT Python, chances are I don't want that sale in the first place.

> There is no reason why my customers need to know in what language the solution is developed in. Business continuity.

Business continuity applies only if we're talking about Java vs Ruby/Python/etc.

If the choice is between Ruby and Python and Clojure and any of the "esoteric" languages as far as enterprises are concerned, that's a red herring.

Re: Leaving .net

#157

Post by sofuture »

jcromartie wrote: post #101
sofuture wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

" There are probably a lot of 9-5ers who could have that switch flipped and go from code monkey to craftsmen, but they are stuck doing WebForms and have never really got bitten by the curiosity bug " That's disingenuous bullshit. Hackers start a lot earlier than "fresh out of college". Disinterested coders aren't lost souls led astray by the ways of .Net, they're disinterested coders; they'd write Ruby with just as l…

LINQ to SQL was killed. IronRuby is terrible. Constantly evolving C# syntax is not inherently a good thing.

C# is evolving, it's not just randomly, breaking-ly changing. It is a good thing.

Re: Leaving .net

#158

Post by batasrki »

lelele wrote: post #150
batasrki wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry, but I don't agree. There is no reason why my customers need to know in what language the solution is developed in. Besides, Ruby powers many highly visible websites and web apps. If I'd be losing a sale because I develop in Ruby and NOT Python, chances are I don't want that sale in the first place.

Let me explain better: Google does not stop at using Python, it embraces and backs it. And every grey suit knows Google.

And any grey suit that deals with the web knows about YellowPages.com which is a Rails site, as is newyorkjets.com.

Google is a compelling argument, no doubt, but if the biz dudes are open to switching from a "traditional" language/framework such as Java/J2EE or .Net, there are other "established" players that use Ruby.

Please don't take this as defending Ruby, the best tool for the job should win out. If the team proposing Python is well-versed in Python, that's what they should go with. But saying that Python is a better bet than Ruby, because Google embraces it is a bit of a strawman.

Re: Leaving .net

#159

Post by bphogan »

bl4k wrote: post #114
acabal wrote: post #8

A sizeable chunk of .NET development happens in the corporate/enterprise world. That sort of environment isn't interested in collaboration, open source, etc.--they're interested in the guaranteed support the MS stack provides, and the idiot-proof web basics provided by ASP/webforms/MVC. If shit hits the fan in the .NET stack for a big enough corporate project, someone in the office can phone/email MS and get support…

Yes. This is what the open source world doesn't understand. You can't just copy a commercial product feature-for-feature, open source it and then scratch your head wondering why it isn't gaining adoption. When a corporate pays for software, they are paying for peace-of-mind and assurance more than the bits that make up the app.

That's true for Office and software packages like Webmail.

But if you build a system using Microsoft's tools and you ask for support, they'll tell you that the problem is with your code, not their tools. They'll support issues with your web server, database server, and even your IDE, but when it comes to the code itself, there's no level of support they can truly offer.

This is from 10 years of personal experience working in an MS centric organization. I get as much support on my Ruby code from MS as I get for the ASP code I wrote. None.

But people up the chain don't get this - they think "if we use the MS stack, we can blame them when something goes wrong."

I'll gladly take $200,000 a year from a company so they can feel like they can blame me when their apps don't work. I'll just charge them so many points per issue, have them run some diagnostics tool I send them, and say "you have a problem with your code. Can't help you."

Re: Leaving .net

#160

Post by thebigshane »

jbarham wrote: post #129
d4nt wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, but would add this. Microsoft's (development) tools have never had any underlying principles other than: enabling people with minimal knowledge to get stuff done. Thinking back through MFC, COM, VB v1-6, Access, SharePoint, WebForms and ADO.NET, none of them were characterised by any particular architectural purity or design aesthetic. But they enabled a generation of corporate developers to hack stuff toget…

> ...hack together stuff that will be thrown away in 2 years Hah! Just like those all those VB6 apps that have been thrown away?!

So true, but I think he meant "hack stuff together with the intention it will be thrown away in 2 years"
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