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Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

theintercept.com

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Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#251

Post by ionised »

marklgr wrote: post #165
eksemplar wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the people who build the Death Star are innocent? The guilty don’t feel guilty, they learn not to. I wouldn’t personally want to work in weapons development, but I certainly wouldn’t want to work in weapons development for a military that as a result of its offensive use of its weapons is making children in the third world afraid of blue skies. But I have a gmail and I use google maps, so I’m not really in a posit…

> The guilty don’t feel guilty, they learn not to. Along with the usual "If I didn't do it, someone else would".

Also known as 'the ultimate cop-out'

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#252

Post by _khau »

cheschire wrote: post #209
paganel wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What is "evil" about working with the military or developing weapons? In case your question is serious: There are still some of us who believe in peace as an end-goal for us humans, as a race. See Kant's "Perpetual Peace: A Philosophical Sketch" ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_Peace:_A_Philosophic... ) for a more detailed view on the subject. "Working with the military or developing weapons" are two activ…

The military's purpose in modern times is not to bring peace, it is to preserve peace. I find it an important distinction, as "bringing" peace sounds like the military's purpose is to force outsiders who may be viewed as unpeaceful to adopt new culture which is viewed as more peaceful. To "preserve" peace implies, at least to me, that the military is focused on the peace of the home population, and may take action el…

No, the purpose of the military in modern times is to push, enforce and maintain the interests of the hyper-capitalist ruling class.

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#253

Post by ionised »

mc32 wrote: post #127
DrJaws wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some people will see the evil as the country you are working for is known as the one of the primary aggressors and war initiators of the history that continues to kill directly and indirectly hundreds of thousands of people in other countries bringing them "democracy" where no one asked them for anything. Others will just see it as a necessity and that every company should work and help the government when they are a…

Well, what’s the alternate option? If the US hadn’t been the “police” of the world. It could have been Russia or China or India, would we rather have had them? And don’t say Europe unless you consider France and the U.K. and others and their things. We don’t live on a vacuum. If you create one, someone will fill it. I am loath to think of how much worse things could be despite the idiotic wars of Obama and W., I thin…

Oh come on.

The US established itself as 'the world police' and built 900+ military bases around the globe to protect its own financial interests at the point of a gun.

Let's not pretend it does any of this shit out of altruism.

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#254

Post by annabellish »

fsloth wrote: post #239
paganel wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What is "evil" about working with the military or developing weapons? In case your question is serious: There are still some of us who believe in peace as an end-goal for us humans, as a race. See Kant's "Perpetual Peace: A Philosophical Sketch" ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_Peace:_A_Philosophic... ) for a more detailed view on the subject. "Working with the military or developing weapons" are two activ…

"There are still some of us who believe in peace as an end-goal for us humans" I'm sorry, but I think in our current world historical evidence is stacked against you. Humans are a political species. The ultimate form of political power within a specified region is to have the most capability for the violence within the region. Hence, if a nation state would secede all capability for violence it would effectively yiel…

This is the theory, yes, and to a point it's even true, but the US military is _not_ being used in this way. There is no challenger for "ultimate political power" within the US region. Their spending and investment is well beyond what is necessary to keep up with the "competition", of which there is effectively none. It is merely the continual expansion and growth of an already vastly overqualified force which hasn't actually been needed to enforce "ultimate political power within its region" in decades, but instead has busied itself on a series of unpopular, unproductive, and devastating wars which have destabilized a region and are now causing problems worldwide.

Making this violence engine more powerful is evil, even if one accepts that a military force is 100% necessary.

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#255

Post by amelius »

jacquesm wrote: post #208
rifung wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is nothing that will stop this. The military will find a defense contractor to do their bidding. But Google can voluntarily elect to remove themselves from this sector. Let some other company do it. Let someone else figure it out. The blood of dead innocent civilians will be on their hands. You don't see Raytheon, Boeing, or Northrop crying about it. I work at Google but opinions are my own. This is actually…

> What is "evil" about working with the military or developing weapons? That your work will be used to kill people? I'm kind of surprised that needs spelling out.

But perhaps the idea is that of deterrence, i.e. that you don't actually plan to use the weapons unless someone forces you to use them.

See Mutual Assured Destruction.

Or you can use them defensively. Killing is evil, but if someone points a gun at you, would you still feel evil if you killed them instead?

Weapons can also neutralize weapons (instead of people), e.g. missile interception.

Further, it might be possible to develop effective non-lethal weapons (military equivalent of taser).

Finally, developing weapons can also mean that weapons become safer. For instance, less collateral damage. Or weapons that can be controlled better, so they can't be used by people who shouldn't use them.

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#256

Post by ionised »

lajhsdfkl wrote: post #207
blackrock wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it is a conflict of interest. The public has put their trust into Google for 20 years. We supported them. We cheered them on. We have voluntarily given them all our personal data. Our emails. Our instant messages. Our voices. All of it feeds into their massive database for them to mine. We put our faith into them, in the hopes that they would honor their creed, that they would do no evil. But gradually, that…

>We put our faith into them, in the hopes that they would honor their creed, that they would do no evil. Working for the US military is not doing evil.

It is if they are doing evil things, which they have done, a lot.

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#257

Post by spupy »

slg wrote: post #140
mattnewton wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because they oppose the drone warfare program, which is killing noncombatants in nominally allied countries. https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_561fafe2e4b028dd7ea6c4ff https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/03/the-oba... It’s not the military that is evil, it’s this particular program in the eyes of many. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-24557333 Disclaimer: I am also fortunate to work at Google an…

>Because they oppose the drone warfare program, which is killing noncombatants in nominally allied countries. I don't understand this logic. Drones are a weapon. They are not any more evil than any other weapon that the military uses. They aren't killing people autonomously. There is a human pilot behind every death. The pilot just happens to be hundreds or thousands miles away from the aircraft. Would we be fine wit…

> They aren't killing people autonomously. There is a human pilot behind every death.

Oh, so we don't need these weaponized AI developements then? But I suspect that with the AI you could more easily escape responsibility by blaming the software. Who faces the consequences when an autonomous drone bombs a school? "Oops, sorry, it was a bug."

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#258

Post by globuous »

fakescience wrote: post #31

To any Google Employees reading this. Don't worry! There are SEVERAL ways you can reduce any cognitive dissonance you might be experiencing as you read more about the evils your company is committing : + rationalization of your own behavior : "I'm not doing this work...I'm working on projects that help people. And ads. But ads are pretty neutral compared to bombing people." + rationalization of others' behavior : "Bo…

Sure. But then, if you live in the "west", please realize the cost of turning on your light bulb or driving your car or wearing your shoes, or turning on the AC, or buying frozen meat. Realize the cost our lifestyle imposes on people elsewhere. The regimes that are protected and the lives we ruin in exchange for us being able to live the lifestyle that we have.

Please don't make me say what I didn't. I'm just asking, as a non googler, am I much better than someone working at google on some of their darker project ? Objectively, everytime I do one of the things I listed above, I kill more people.

My point being, your 4 points don't only apply to google employees. Indeed, at the very least, I feel they also apply to me, a non google, chillin at my house with AC and cold water.

I pick your third bullet point. Because 1 would be lying to myself, I don't believe in 2, and I'm too weak to pick 4: I won't stop using my AC. I conclude I must be a much worst person I thought I was.

On to watching netflix, I need to know what happens next in this one very important show.

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#259

Post by simion314 »

flatline wrote: post #62
fakescience wrote: post #31

To any Google Employees reading this. Don't worry! There are SEVERAL ways you can reduce any cognitive dissonance you might be experiencing as you read more about the evils your company is committing : + rationalization of your own behavior : "I'm not doing this work...I'm working on projects that help people. And ads. But ads are pretty neutral compared to bombing people." + rationalization of others' behavior : "Bo…

Or accept the reality that we live in a world that feels the need to kill people. I think it would be swell to not need a military but the reality is that we do. If you have qualms about working for Google as a defense contractor, consider the implications of living in the US (or in all likelihood wherever you happen to reside). Can you justify paying your taxes? Can you justify voting for one of a handful of candida…

I think as an individual we can decline working on things we consider immoral or evil even if they are legal.

As an individual you may not want your name to be associated to evil(subjective) and you may want peace of mind. Say if my boss would ask me to do something I consider evil but it is legal I think I am strong enough and won't do it, and even advocate for my position. I also think that I have the right to talk with my colleagues and ask what they think and what can we do.

The fact that it should be illegal to kill people remotely without a trial or a declaration of war is a different problem of employees opposing working on "evil" things.

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#260

Post by edanm »

jacquesm wrote: post #208
rifung wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is nothing that will stop this. The military will find a defense contractor to do their bidding. But Google can voluntarily elect to remove themselves from this sector. Let some other company do it. Let someone else figure it out. The blood of dead innocent civilians will be on their hands. You don't see Raytheon, Boeing, or Northrop crying about it. I work at Google but opinions are my own. This is actually…

> What is "evil" about working with the military or developing weapons? That your work will be used to kill people? I'm kind of surprised that needs spelling out.

Do you believe that having a military is evil? Serving in the military is evil?
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