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Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

theintercept.com

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Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#231

Post by ma2rten »

rifung wrote: post #103
blackrock wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it is a conflict of interest. The public has put their trust into Google for 20 years. We supported them. We cheered them on. We have voluntarily given them all our personal data. Our emails. Our instant messages. Our voices. All of it feeds into their massive database for them to mine. We put our faith into them, in the hopes that they would honor their creed, that they would do no evil. But gradually, that…

> There is nothing that will stop this. The military will find a defense contractor to do their bidding. But Google can voluntarily elect to remove themselves from this sector. Let some other company do it. Let someone else figure it out. The blood of dead innocent civilians will be on their hands. You don't see Raytheon, Boeing, or Northrop crying about it. I work at Google but opinions are my own. This is actually…

The comment that you quoted is missing the point a little bit. We are talking about using AI to power weapons. That is uncharted territory and a decision that should be taken lightly and be done behind closed doors.

You have to understand that many people both at HN and at Google are not Americans. The United States is founded on great democratic values, but in the past sometimes failed to uphold them in relationship to other countries (dropping an atomic bomb on Japan, the wars in Vietnam and Iraq, torturing in Guantanamo and the NSA's prism program which directly affected Google).

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#232

Post by Regardsyjc »

manigandham wrote: post #212

The world runs on violence. It's the fundamental force that keeps things in order. Modern society with all its rules and laws is nothing without enforcement, which is ultimately delivered via a monopoly license granted to the government with its military and police to keep everyone else safe and free. Being the best at deploying violence is how you defend against the chaos elsewhere. This isn't about "evil corporatio…

I agree.

I believe the only reason American civilians like us have been able to enjoy peace is because we dropped a ton of bombs to blast tiny countries out of the sky and we also have a history of fighting wars not to win, but not to lose. If Americans are willing to sacrifice their people and resources for a tiny country in the middle of nowhere, imagine what they would do to you if you attacked them or their interests.

I was watching a documentary about the Schwarzman Scholars, and Schwarzman said something like out of the 4 or 5 times where a superpower was challenged by a new rising superpower, it led to armed conflict 3 times. I haven't been able to find an article to back up this claim so would appreciate if anyone could point out if it's blatantly wrong or if there's a source. Either way, there might be a new superpower.

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#233

Post by Cthulhu_ »

strooper wrote: post #58

I don't see anything wrong for a company of a particular country helping their military. GE, Siemens, Mitsubishi and all tech giants of that era did that with pride during WWII. Then why can't Google, Facebook for USA? Perhaps the illusion of globalization is making us perceive Google, Facebook and other international giants as global companies. Although, geniuses from around the world have significant contributions…

The difference is that the wars nowadays are less about ideals and more about profit. Yes muslim extremism is bad and those people are bastards, but the military isn't fighting them as effectively and there is no way to win this war - like the "war" on drugs it's a self-reinforcing, endless cycle kinda thing.

WW2 was different; the nazis had invaded most of Europe, were committing genocide, etc.

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#234

Post by exitheone »

rifung wrote: post #103
blackrock wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it is a conflict of interest. The public has put their trust into Google for 20 years. We supported them. We cheered them on. We have voluntarily given them all our personal data. Our emails. Our instant messages. Our voices. All of it feeds into their massive database for them to mine. We put our faith into them, in the hopes that they would honor their creed, that they would do no evil. But gradually, that…

> There is nothing that will stop this. The military will find a defense contractor to do their bidding. But Google can voluntarily elect to remove themselves from this sector. Let some other company do it. Let someone else figure it out. The blood of dead innocent civilians will be on their hands. You don't see Raytheon, Boeing, or Northrop crying about it. I work at Google but opinions are my own. This is actually…

I also work at Google, my opinions are my own as well.

I don't work in the US. I'm not a US citizen. I don't support the actions of the US military. Hell I _really_ don't want to be involved with the weapons development branch of the US military. That is one reason why me and a lot of Googlers are opposed to this.

Would you be happy for Google to work with the military of another country you have zero control over that has very questionable motives?

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#235

Post by stef25 »

strooper wrote: post #58

I don't see anything wrong for a company of a particular country helping their military. GE, Siemens, Mitsubishi and all tech giants of that era did that with pride during WWII. Then why can't Google, Facebook for USA? Perhaps the illusion of globalization is making us perceive Google, Facebook and other international giants as global companies. Although, geniuses from around the world have significant contributions…

Nothing wrong with running their emails or servers but helping it identify targets with AI brings it very close to everyone's nightmare scenario of fully autonomous killer drones.

I don't know the details, probably everything will be verified by a human (for now) and we're maybe talking only structures and patterns instead of persons.

But things may evolve quickly. AI can already drive a car and diagnose some illnesses better than humans can (there was a recent article about AI detecting melanoma).

The step to "decide who to kill better than a human" is awfully close. Personally I'm not against it all if better really means better. It's just crazy that cutesy Google with their maps and emails are now doing this.

It's shocking enough that Intercept would pounce on it. If it was Raytheon nobody would care.

I wonder if they'll update their terms & conditions. "Any selfies may be used to kill you". Al Qaeda better (not) be using Google Photos.

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#236

Post by wiz21c »

blackrock wrote: post #98
strooper wrote: post #58

I don't see anything wrong for a company of a particular country helping their military. GE, Siemens, Mitsubishi and all tech giants of that era did that with pride during WWII. Then why can't Google, Facebook for USA? Perhaps the illusion of globalization is making us perceive Google, Facebook and other international giants as global companies. Although, geniuses from around the world have significant contributions…

Because it is a conflict of interest. The public has put their trust into Google for 20 years. We supported them. We cheered them on. We have voluntarily given them all our personal data. Our emails. Our instant messages. Our voices. All of it feeds into their massive database for them to mine. We put our faith into them, in the hopes that they would honor their creed, that they would do no evil. But gradually, that…

Not to blame you but :

>>> The public has put their trust into Google for 20 years.

who's fault is it ?

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#237

Post by XorNot »

cheschire wrote: post #209
paganel wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What is "evil" about working with the military or developing weapons? In case your question is serious: There are still some of us who believe in peace as an end-goal for us humans, as a race. See Kant's "Perpetual Peace: A Philosophical Sketch" ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_Peace:_A_Philosophic... ) for a more detailed view on the subject. "Working with the military or developing weapons" are two activ…

The military's purpose in modern times is not to bring peace, it is to preserve peace. I find it an important distinction, as "bringing" peace sounds like the military's purpose is to force outsiders who may be viewed as unpeaceful to adopt new culture which is viewed as more peaceful. To "preserve" peace implies, at least to me, that the military is focused on the peace of the home population, and may take action el…

It's worth adding that this idea is why we have the somewhat paradoxical concept of laws of armed conflict. One of the express goals of things like the Genvea conventions is to ensure the prompt re-establishment of peace.

You don't end war by starting with the assumption that there aren't and won't be anymore before you're successful - or you would've been already.

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#238

Post by dzdt »

jacobolus wrote: post #37
colordrops wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, your moral compass is off. The US has toppled a large number of sovereign states that were not acting violently toward other nations, and installed dictators and monarchs. The US supports Saudi Arabia, one of the most authoritarian nations on earth, who backed an actual attack on US soil, and yet they invade nations with false claims of WMD and kill hundreds of thousands. To claim that the US is the police and no…

The US has a long tradition of tacitly supporting genocide, slaughter of civilians, collective punishment, torture and assassination or other extrajudicial murder of journalists and dissidents and labor leaders, mass surveillance, etc. etc. in places where “our dictator” happened to be in charge. More directly, the US has directly toppled many democratically elected governments, undermined sovereign political process…

I doubted the accuracy of the parent post, but it seems to pretty much check out.

" rel="nofollow">https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1954_Guatemalan_coup_d%27éta...

" rel="nofollow">https://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2013/05/19/what-guilt-...

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#239

Post by fsloth »

paganel wrote: post #142
rifung wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is nothing that will stop this. The military will find a defense contractor to do their bidding. But Google can voluntarily elect to remove themselves from this sector. Let some other company do it. Let someone else figure it out. The blood of dead innocent civilians will be on their hands. You don't see Raytheon, Boeing, or Northrop crying about it. I work at Google but opinions are my own. This is actually…

> What is "evil" about working with the military or developing weapons? In case your question is serious: There are still some of us who believe in peace as an end-goal for us humans, as a race. See Kant's "Perpetual Peace: A Philosophical Sketch" ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_Peace:_A_Philosophic... ) for a more detailed view on the subject. "Working with the military or developing weapons" are two activ…

"There are still some of us who believe in peace as an end-goal for us humans"

I'm sorry, but I think in our current world historical evidence is stacked against you.

Humans are a political species. The ultimate form of political power within a specified region is to have the most capability for the violence within the region.

Hence, if a nation state would secede all capability for violence it would effectively yield the ultimate political power to someone else.

Within this framework a state needs some force projection capability within it's territory or it will sooner or later lose it's political power.

Projecting force outside of the nation states borders or using the force to subjugate it's own population is a different thing all together. You can have too much violence, but you can't really get rid of it with the current psychological configuration of the human species.

Re: Leaked Emails Show Google Expected Military Drone AI Work to Grow Exponentially

#240

Post by sireat »

rifung wrote: post #103
blackrock wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it is a conflict of interest. The public has put their trust into Google for 20 years. We supported them. We cheered them on. We have voluntarily given them all our personal data. Our emails. Our instant messages. Our voices. All of it feeds into their massive database for them to mine. We put our faith into them, in the hopes that they would honor their creed, that they would do no evil. But gradually, that…

> There is nothing that will stop this. The military will find a defense contractor to do their bidding. But Google can voluntarily elect to remove themselves from this sector. Let some other company do it. Let someone else figure it out. The blood of dead innocent civilians will be on their hands. You don't see Raytheon, Boeing, or Northrop crying about it. I work at Google but opinions are my own. This is actually…

Working for military by building superior exo-skeletons and armor/weapons for soldiers as well as gear carrying robot-dogs is pretty okay if one realizes the need for military.

Then these soldiers go on site in another country risk their lives and take out specific bad guys without shooting too many bystanders.

You can then argue whether those were really bad guys and whether that specific operation needed to be carried out.

Building drones which are controlled remotely(or even worse by AI) to kill a wedding with kids where possibly a few people were the bad guys is NOT OK.

Drones facilitate political/military cop-outs.

For extra credit you can watch a few seasons of Homeland. Sure it is fiction but the issues are there.

To reiterate: even if you support working for military there is difference on what kind of weapons you work on

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