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Leaving .net

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141–150 of 221 posts

Re: Leaving .net

#141

Post by zentechen »

asp.net mvc was a community effort and open source from the every beginning. It even packed in with jquery javascript library. It can have the same collaborative community support as any other framework. However, I suspect that the most of developers are not interested in contributing is because the learning curve it has for who coming from traditional ASP.NET background. Among those so-called developers most are contractors who are used to hack up quick and dirty web applications that aren't scalable in a few years.

On the other hands, we have to give kudos to Microsoft that making things easy for people with little programming background get off the ground.

Re: Leaving .net

#142

Post by thecodemonk »

jerf wrote: post #126
acabal wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A company I worked for in the past (MM pageviews a day, you've probably heard of them) was a big MS proponent and an early adopter of some of their new stuff, like--at the time--Silverlight. We had a fairly direct line to someone at MS if something crazy happened. It might not always get fixed right away (a bug that might need to wait for the next cycle), but MS was always on top of what needed fixing. Contrarily, we…

"MM pageviews a day, you've probably heard of them) was a big MS proponent and an early adopter of some of their new stuff, like--at the time--Silverlight." Yes, and that's about what it takes to get attention. Especially the "early adopter of Silverlight", you probably had a dedicated team back at MS. And there are other large companies that also rise to this size. What confuses me is the 30-person ISV that believes…

Wow. We are a 10 person company (entire company, not just dev staff), and we had a major issue and I called MS and the issues was fixed in 2 days. And no, it wasn't some wierd setting or some hotfix that was already available, it was a bug in 2008 R2. Minidumps, remote sessions, and long conference calls for 2 days, but they ended up providing some files in the end to work around it until the next patch.

Re: Leaving .net

#143

Post by forensic »

aarongough wrote: post #136
city41 wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If a bug is found in the stack itself, it won't languish unsolved in bug trackers for years, like many OSS bugs do. MS will probably fix it in their next cycle You also have the option of paying Microsoft for a QFE (quick fix engineering). With a QFE, the team fixes the bug as an immediate priority and provides you with a patch for it. All QFEs eventually get rolled up into cumulative updates and/or service packs.

So I'm paying to fix a bug in their software that I've already paid for? Call me crazy, but if I have the option of cracking open the stack and having a go at fixing the bug myself I'll do it. At least that way I'm not dependent on anyone else for the fix...

How much does it cost you to divert your attention to fixing someone else's bugs?

It's all just a question of economic efficiency. Being able to pay for priority bugfixes is efficient.

Re: Leaving .net

#144

Post by zentechen »

troyk wrote: post #135
d4nt wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, but would add this. Microsoft's (development) tools have never had any underlying principles other than: enabling people with minimal knowledge to get stuff done. Thinking back through MFC, COM, VB v1-6, Access, SharePoint, WebForms and ADO.NET, none of them were characterised by any particular architectural purity or design aesthetic. But they enabled a generation of corporate developers to hack stuff toget…

I lead a small .net shop up until 2005, when MS decided that integrated unit testing was only going to be available in their Team Edition, which was $1,500 per seat. They later retracted, but we were already drinking python and ruby kool-aide and never looked back. Although I really enjoyed C#, everything else about the community and ecosystem will eventually be a killjoy if you value your work over your resume.

I agree, C# is aweesome as a programming language. With Mono, an open source implmentation of .NET framework, it virtually runs cross all platform, even supports iPhone apps with MonoTouch.

Re: Leaving .net

#145

Post by thecodemonk »

dangrossman wrote: post #58
ihumanable wrote: post #9

I can't agree more with the observations on MVC. It's really a symptom of .Net and Microsoft locking in the vast majority of inexperienced users with overly abstract components. Developers fresh out of college who were taught .Net in school and get a job in it become experts at Partial PostBacks and Code Behinds and binding data to the latest whiz-bang GridDataAwesomeControlForTheWin. The problem I've seen time and a…

There are colleges teaching .NET? I'd never heard of that.

There is a college here that starts you out with VB.Net, in the CS track, no less. They learn C++ the semester after that. I wish they would just drop VB.Net and start with C++ then let them take an elective with C# or something...

Re: Leaving .net

#146

Post by zentechen »

mahmud wrote: post #15
shin_lao wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why making money with programming makes you feel dirty?

It was Microsoft's answer to Java, with hindsight 20/20. I wanted to see their take on portable bytecode, JIT techniques, security, distributed computing, performance, etc. Nearly everybody there was burned by MS's short attention span when it comes to system libraries (OLE, COM, DCOM, DCOM+ for one, and the mess that is data-access libraries, OLE-DB,MDAC, ODBC, ADO, Jet, etc.) We wanted closure, at least I knew I di…

Perl? You serious? Are you developing text-based system?

Re: Leaving .net

#147

Post by redstripe »

I would be worried about the lack of community integration in the asp.net platform if it was stagnant - but it's not. It's moving forward very rapidly. I guess he's unhappy that he can't contribute to that progress. I agree, it would be nice if MS at least reviewed contributions from the community but I imagine that is something decided by lawyers and not programmers in a company that size.

Personally I prefer stability in a platform over the exciting ups and downs of open source projects. I just want to get stuff done. I want my challenges to be in the code I write and not in maintaining a patchwork machine.

Finally, as a support base I find the .net community to be very good. Just look at how large and helpful the community on stackoverflow is. Communication from MS is also pretty good. You would certainly never see Scott Gu pull one of these: http://blog.wekeroad.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/dhh-fu.j...

Re: Leaving .net

#148

Post by jasonkester »

This guy lives in a different world from me. In my world, .NET is just a really good set of class libraries and a well thought out templating system that you can use to present HTML.

I realize that it advertises itself as a lot more than that, and that there are thousands of terrible ASP:whatever controls and the ability to drag and drop them in a visual designer, and a nightmare of ViewState and EverythingIsAPostBack and all that other stuff that people complain about.

But I've never met anybody that uses any of it.

ASP.NET MVC came out, and it didn't change the way I build my stuff in any fundamental way, because the way it expects you to work is the way that anybody who knew their stuff was working already. In the middle of ASP.NET lives a little core of "good". Find it, use it, and you'll be happy.

Re: Leaving .net

#149

Post by mahmud »

thecodemonk wrote: post #139
mahmud wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I worked in a different era than yours. Today, you can pick and choose the microsoft stack you want to use, if any at all, because you have choice and they don't. Then, you sold software based on polish and integration in UI look and feel. You have to choose your tools very carefully, because of the realities of software publishing and distribution. You don't know how long it takes from the moment you press the CD-RO…

Wait a minute... You are complaining that you are now forced to have updated looking and function software? Oh. The horror. That's a sure way to make your users mad. Sell them software today that looks like it was written 10 years ago... But wait, it was written 10 years ago. You are completely pushing the philosophy of technology needs to remain the same and consistant through all of time. Not possible, ever. Techno…

What? Did I not make myself clear or are you incapable of reading?

I am not "complaining about now", I am complaining about 10 years ago. Specifically '98-00. Fireup Wikipedia and do a little MS history research.

I want my software to look fresh and fit in with the UI of the environment. I said was coding for the future, i.e. use the most cutting edge software today, so by the time we put the software on shelves, it doesn't look old.

My #1 issue with MS, really, is that they let the official API stagnate and forced us developers to use Office and IE components, in the hope of integrating them with Windows.

I would make sense of your writing if it wasn't so weirdly phrased.

Re: Leaving .net

#150

Post by lelele »

batasrki wrote: post #99
lelele wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, Google, for the most part. You are not using an agile language, you are using some of the technology Google relies on, aren't you? ;-) Google, and beyond it. You could easily have a case for Python: Nokia has made it available for Symbian, Microsoft endorses it via ActiveState, and so on. My friends, if we want to be effective entrepreneurs, we must learn how to repackage things in a way customers will find att…

I'm sorry, but I don't agree. There is no reason why my customers need to know in what language the solution is developed in. Besides, Ruby powers many highly visible websites and web apps. If I'd be losing a sale because I develop in Ruby and NOT Python, chances are I don't want that sale in the first place.

Let me explain better: Google does not stop at using Python, it embraces and backs it. And every grey suit knows Google.
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