Telegram App Says Apple Is Blocking Updates Over Dispute with Russia • Hacker News Board

Re: Telegram App Says Apple Is Blocking Updates Over Dispute with Russia

#91

Post by asveikau » Thu, May 31, 2018, 10:38 PM UTC

jonknee wrote: post #66

jMyles wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> how big of a mess that was on desktops Wait, what? The desktop experience is wonderful in this regard - choose any number of app stores if you want, or don't, if you don't want. I've never, ever thought of this as a problem.

The millions of desktops riddled with adware and viruses running to this day is pretty good evidence that most people cannot effectively manage software on a desktop OS. Remember when you'd find four different toolbars on IE that your friend/family/neighbor had no idea how they got? If you're on this site you are not most people. But, if it wasn't for the rules of Apple and Google what kind of things do you think Can…

> The millions of desktops riddled with adware and viruses running to this day is pretty good evidence that most people cannot effectively manage software on a desktop OS.

Is this an actual fact-based observation or just personal memories rooted in a time that Windows 98 was the best that many people got?

It often seems like people who hold your position are arguing against a caricature. As in, you can't do it this way because people used to have problems, or people might...

Re: Telegram App Says Apple Is Blocking Updates Over Dispute with Russia

#92

Post by insulanus » Thu, May 31, 2018, 10:41 PM UTC

wafflebear wrote: post #76

anderber wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All this points to me is the risks of owning a phone whose only way to add apps is to go through one company's own discretion. Unlike in Android where you can easily install apps from other app stores or just download the file.

Not applicable to Telegram, but if the app is open source and you have a Mac (!) you can install it using Xcode. Since Signal is actually open source, you can install it even if Apple decides to block it in the future (if you have a Mac).

This is a great option if your audience has very high need, but it will not make it available to the average non-tech savvy person who needs it.

Re: Telegram App Says Apple Is Blocking Updates Over Dispute with Russia

#93

Post by Anon1096 » Thu, May 31, 2018, 10:42 PM UTC

wafflebear wrote: post #76

anderber wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All this points to me is the risks of owning a phone whose only way to add apps is to go through one company's own discretion. Unlike in Android where you can easily install apps from other app stores or just download the file.

Not applicable to Telegram, but if the app is open source and you have a Mac (!) you can install it using Xcode. Since Signal is actually open source, you can install it even if Apple decides to block it in the future (if you have a Mac).

Telegram clients are open source and can be built yourself.

Re: Telegram App Says Apple Is Blocking Updates Over Dispute with Russia

#94

Post by insulanus » Thu, May 31, 2018, 10:44 PM UTC

jonknee wrote: post #66

jMyles wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> how big of a mess that was on desktops Wait, what? The desktop experience is wonderful in this regard - choose any number of app stores if you want, or don't, if you don't want. I've never, ever thought of this as a problem.

The millions of desktops riddled with adware and viruses running to this day is pretty good evidence that most people cannot effectively manage software on a desktop OS. Remember when you'd find four different toolbars on IE that your friend/family/neighbor had no idea how they got? If you're on this site you are not most people. But, if it wasn't for the rules of Apple and Google what kind of things do you think Can…

Well, I agree with a slightly different assertion: that most people cannot securely manage software on a current desktop OS.

One of the problems that I think we technical people have not been able to solve yet is giving the user appropriate signals of the relative danger of the action they are about to engage in.

If all the dialog boxes look very similar, and any app can create one, you have yourself a dangerous system.

Re: Telegram App Says Apple Is Blocking Updates Over Dispute with Russia

#95

Post by hundchenkatze » Thu, May 31, 2018, 10:48 PM UTC

jfornear wrote: post #40

egeozcan wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But you require scripts from a lot of 3rd parties, which may or may not respect my privacy. Maybe consider using a CDN or hosting necessary scripts on your server?

All scripts are on Cloudfront except for when someone shares a YouTube video or Twitter tweet. Google Analytics and Typekit are the only third-party scripts that are always loaded. I do need to add UI to allow users to disable these.

I had to accept a script from platform.twitter.com before I could close the SignIn/Register modal. Here's a short gif.

https://gfycat.com/gifs/detail/HelplessAlienatedClownanemone...

The app looks great though :)

Re: Telegram App Says Apple Is Blocking Updates Over Dispute with Russia

#96

Post by jfornear » Thu, May 31, 2018, 10:50 PM UTC

hundchenkatze wrote: post #95

jfornear wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All scripts are on Cloudfront except for when someone shares a YouTube video or Twitter tweet. Google Analytics and Typekit are the only third-party scripts that are always loaded. I do need to add UI to allow users to disable these.

I had to accept a script from platform.twitter.com before I could close the SignIn/Register modal. Here's a short gif. https://gfycat.com/gifs/detail/HelplessAlienatedClownanemone... The app looks great though :)

Thanks for reporting this! Yes, apparently the Twitter script is always loaded also. I need to add logic to only load it when needed.

Re: Telegram App Says Apple Is Blocking Updates Over Dispute with Russia

#97

Post by vbezhenar » Thu, May 31, 2018, 10:51 PM UTC

Muromec wrote: post #74

lifeisstillgood wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair enough - this is essentially my own question above - what pressure can be applied by Russia to Apple to prevent App Store UK getting updates? If you have a legal dispute in country A does the prevent all counties getting updates?

> Fair enough - this is essentially my own question above - what pressure can be applied by Russia to Apple to prevent App Store UK getting updates? They can fine the company, ban import of Apple products into the country, block access to App Store, etc. Yes, that same agency. It doesn't even matter which regional section of App Store Telegram would use to publish app - users in need can switch between them and censo…

Can you really switch between stores? I think you would need UK credit card for that.

Re: Telegram App Says Apple Is Blocking Updates Over Dispute with Russia

#98

Post by Semirhage » Thu, May 31, 2018, 10:52 PM UTC

Bud wrote: post #54

laveur wrote: post #41

From all the articles I have read about this Telegram seems to offer no evidence to supports its case. Further more it claims its only iOS, and not macOS. And I personally have gotten at least several updates for at least the mac version over the past month.

I keep seeing a lot of iffy reporting on this. Has anyone actually run this down and done a solid article on it?

Read the comments here, and it seems like Telegram is being pretty shrewd from PR perspective, since everyone is willing to blame Russia and Apple. Admittedly Russia is a deservedly easy target, and Apple has some vocal critics. If enough people want to believe the accusation, and are willing to at face value (and that seems to be the case here at least) then it’s already “mission accomplished” for Telegram.

Re: Telegram App Says Apple Is Blocking Updates Over Dispute with Russia

#99

Post by JumpCrisscross » Thu, May 31, 2018, 10:54 PM UTC

danShumway wrote: post #77

jonknee wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Installing apps outside an app store also introduces other risks, it's not exactly one better than the other. Personally I'd love to sideload apps, but seeing how big of a mess that was on desktops leads me to believe most users are better served by a gatekeeper.

Others have already said this, but you can always add a gatekeeper on top of an open system. IMHO what closed systems like Apple propose is a false dichotomy. There's no reason why Apple couldn't allow sideloading apps and aggressively curate it's own store. The average user will use Apple certified apps and the power users who need more will sideload uncertified apps. If gatekeepers are as genuinely beneficial to en…

Put a phone permitting side loading in front of my mom or half my friends and they’ll find a way to get a virus within a month. Broadly speaking, freedom a consumer doesn’t understand isn’t freedom to them. Apple’s products are reliable in part due to their tight control over the ecosystem.

Re: Telegram App Says Apple Is Blocking Updates Over Dispute with Russia

#100

Post by chipotle_coyote » Thu, May 31, 2018, 10:56 PM UTC

jonknee wrote: post #11

anderber wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All this points to me is the risks of owning a phone whose only way to add apps is to go through one company's own discretion. Unlike in Android where you can easily install apps from other app stores or just download the file.

Installing apps outside an app store also introduces other risks, it's not exactly one better than the other. Personally I'd love to sideload apps, but seeing how big of a mess that was on desktops leads me to believe most users are better served by a gatekeeper.

While that's probably true, Apple could bring to iOS what macOS has been doing for years: code-signed apps that aren't distributed through the App Store and aren't subject to any of the App Store's restrictions (and can't guarantee the ostensible security benefits), but can still be "disabled" by Apple if they prove to be bad actors. On macOS, there are actually three states for this: signed App Store apps, signed regular apps, and entirely unsigned apps. Users get to tell the system what to allow and disallow. There's no really good technical reason for Apple not to allow at least the first two categories on iOS by now.

(That system on macOS is, for those who don't remember, called Gatekeeper!)