Why Is Front-End Development So Unstable? • Hacker News Board

Re: Why Is Front-End Development So Unstable?

#11

Post by freedomben » Wed, May 30, 2018, 8:38 PM UTC

perlgeek wrote: post #6

> 2.5 years for the youngest isn’t that old in the scheme of things - it’s less than half the support lifespan of your typical desktop OS, for example - but it’s still a ways off our caricature. Let's compare it with some server-side technologies: Python/Django: 2005 Python/Flask: 2010 Nginx: 2004 Perl/Catalyst: 2006 Maybe I'm biased towards older software, but the difference to the popular frontend stuff is striking…

> but it seems many developers frown upon it these days

This is sadly very true. jQuery is almost used as an insult these days. Having code be called "jQuery Spaghetti" is about the worst epithet that can be hurled at a javascript codebase these days.

Re: Why Is Front-End Development So Unstable?

#12

Post by aaron-lebo » Wed, May 30, 2018, 8:39 PM UTC

zitterbewegung wrote: post #9

perlgeek wrote: post #6

> 2.5 years for the youngest isn’t that old in the scheme of things - it’s less than half the support lifespan of your typical desktop OS, for example - but it’s still a ways off our caricature. Let's compare it with some server-side technologies: Python/Django: 2005 Python/Flask: 2010 Nginx: 2004 Perl/Catalyst: 2006 Maybe I'm biased towards older software, but the difference to the popular frontend stuff is striking…

I think more developers should use jquery to prototype an app and move torward a framework when it is needed. The same should be said when adopting redux when using react . Also webpack for building and moving beyond SQLite for data .

They really shouldn't. Modern browsers have lots of the selector magic built-in, and frameworks that are very, very small can handle the rest without the spaghetti.

Re: Why Is Front-End Development So Unstable?

#13

Post by freedomben » Wed, May 30, 2018, 8:40 PM UTC

aaron-lebo wrote: post #10

perlgeek wrote: post #6

> 2.5 years for the youngest isn’t that old in the scheme of things - it’s less than half the support lifespan of your typical desktop OS, for example - but it’s still a ways off our caricature. Let's compare it with some server-side technologies: Python/Django: 2005 Python/Flask: 2010 Nginx: 2004 Perl/Catalyst: 2006 Maybe I'm biased towards older software, but the difference to the popular frontend stuff is striking…

The difference is that the backend model has been around for 20 years if not more. You're locating lots of old-ish and stable libraries because that's when that stuff was made. Maybe you don't remember the days of Zope, Subway, Turbogears, Paste, Pylons, Werkzeug etc just within Python, but that happened. React is a relatively young model for the web. Wait 10 years and it'll look the same. I personally don't feel it'…

These are some very fair points. React also really does seem to be becoming a "standard" more so than anything I've seen in years. Time will tell of course, but I think you're on to something.

Re: Why Is Front-End Development So Unstable?

#14

Post by patorjk » Wed, May 30, 2018, 8:40 PM UTC

> What is to be done? ... Consider non-microlib architectures

What about what happened with Angular (1), the 3rd library on your list? That whole framework was deprecated in favor of Angular (2). Additionally, the list of front-end libraries given doesn't really reflect the landscape front-end devs have traversed.

Years ago, I remember working on an app that heavily relied on YUI around the time that library was shutdown. I also heard stories about how ExtJS 4 wasn't backwards compatible. I'm not sure I buy into the author's thesis about the reason for front-end fatigue.

Re: Why Is Front-End Development So Unstable?

#15

Post by freedomben » Wed, May 30, 2018, 8:41 PM UTC

kuon wrote: post #4

I work with elm now for frontend. It has often been criticized for being too conservative and slow paced in its development. But the result is that code is easier to maintain, libraries have a great quality and most of the time there is only one, obvious, way of doing something.

Somewhat unrelated, but a couple of questions for you:

1. How did you learn elm?

2. Was elm your first functional language? (Not wanting the "javascript is a functional language" battle here plz)

3. What is your backend written in? Do you maintain that?

4. What libraries do you make use of?

5. Any regrets?

Re: Why Is Front-End Development So Unstable?

#16

Post by mseebach » Wed, May 30, 2018, 8:42 PM UTC

> Put yourself in the shoes of a junior-to-mid-level JavaScript developer, writing a new application for the first time.

> But how could you do better, Junior Developer? Who was there to guide you? The Senior Developers, too, are learning as they go. We’re caught in this avalanche too, just trying to keep up to date and remain employable.

No, this is exactly the problem: junior developers making major architecture decisions unassisted. The "senior" developer who is "caught in the avalanche" isn't senior by any reasonable definition of the word.

Development in general, and, it seems, front end web development in particular, is both easy and hard. Somewhere between batteries-included frameworks, blogs, YouTube channels and MOOCs, it's very easy to get from zero to something good looking and more or less functional pretty quickly. But this can easily hide the complexity that pretty quickly creeps in, and reasoning about complexity is one of the crucial things that a senior developer brings to the table.

Re: Why Is Front-End Development So Unstable?

#17

Post by [deleted] » Wed, May 30, 2018, 8:42 PM UTC

freedomben wrote: post #8

This is a really well-written and well-thought out piece. The author touches on a number of points but never gets polemical. This piece resonated with me particularly well: > Be wary of self-promotion > Over the last few years I’ve seen much more aggressive self-marketing in the JavaScript world, possibly due to the rise of paid online training materials and the employment/consulting advantage of being a Github ‘cele…

[deleted]

Re: Why Is Front-End Development So Unstable?

#18

Post by overcast » Wed, May 30, 2018, 8:43 PM UTC

baybal2 wrote: post #3

>Why is Front-End Development So Unstable? Because on average, the skill level in the whole webdev community is low. Below that of "a dev with average schooling, and average industry experience" Webdev has close to no barriers for entry, and is under the strongest influence from the fact that the evaluation of deliverables is not done by another tech professional out of all software development jobs The combo above m…

Damn dude, why so negative? Reading through your comment history, it's apparent. Life is too short to be miserable on the internet.

Re: Why Is Front-End Development So Unstable?

#19

Post by maemilius » Wed, May 30, 2018, 8:43 PM UTC

perlgeek wrote: post #6

> 2.5 years for the youngest isn’t that old in the scheme of things - it’s less than half the support lifespan of your typical desktop OS, for example - but it’s still a ways off our caricature. Let's compare it with some server-side technologies: Python/Django: 2005 Python/Flask: 2010 Nginx: 2004 Perl/Catalyst: 2006 Maybe I'm biased towards older software, but the difference to the popular frontend stuff is striking…

No love for Rails? It's also been around since 2005.

Re: Why Is Front-End Development So Unstable?

#20

Post by perlgeek » Wed, May 30, 2018, 8:44 PM UTC

aaron-lebo wrote: post #10

perlgeek wrote: post #6

> 2.5 years for the youngest isn’t that old in the scheme of things - it’s less than half the support lifespan of your typical desktop OS, for example - but it’s still a ways off our caricature. Let's compare it with some server-side technologies: Python/Django: 2005 Python/Flask: 2010 Nginx: 2004 Perl/Catalyst: 2006 Maybe I'm biased towards older software, but the difference to the popular frontend stuff is striking…

The difference is that the backend model has been around for 20 years if not more. You're locating lots of old-ish and stable libraries because that's when that stuff was made. Maybe you don't remember the days of Zope, Subway, Turbogears, Paste, Pylons, Werkzeug etc just within Python, but that happened. React is a relatively young model for the web. Wait 10 years and it'll look the same. I personally don't feel it'…

> Pick a library, stick with it, stop jumping to the next framework and the churn stops.

I wish it were that easy. At work, we've picked angular 1, and now there's angular 5, which is a totally different framework (and the migration path only works well if you did everything juuuust right), and no clear policy on how long angular 1 will be maintained.

So either we churn, or we have no idea how long there will be any support.