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Google spinoff Dandelion uses ground energy to heat and cool homes

cnet.com

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Re: Google spinoff Dandelion uses ground energy to heat and cool homes

#51

Post by jaclaz »

jaclaz wrote: post #36
sp332 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dandelion uses a cheaper drilling method to reduce up-front costs. https://blog.x.company/introducing-dandelion-2706eded169a

Well, that is what they say (without telling anything about the actual drilling method). A typical water well drilling machine is on the back of a large truck and will bore a 30-40 cm hole for (prices here in Europe) 80-90 €/m. There are smaller drill rigs (nothing that actually needs to be invented, only "normal" micropiling rigs) that can bore 10-20 cm diameter holes for a price of 60-70 Euro/m. Let's say you need…

Replying to myself, to add some actual data for the drilling rig from another source:

>Second, it has developed its own drilling rig–smaller and more nimble than traditional geothermal rigs. The custom-built machine is 19 feet long, 8 feet wide, and 8 feet tall, and weighs about 23,000 pounds compared to more than 70,000 pounds for a standard drilling rig. That means it can get closer to the house, and it won’t damage the grass so much, Hannun says.

Third, it drills a smaller hole–4.5 inches wide instead of a standard 6 inches. That means less dirt and rock coming out and less grout with which to fill the gap between the pipe and the ground. A six-inch hole produces 662 gallons of “spoils” and uses 561 gallons of grout to fill, Hannun says. A 4.5-inch one produces only 372 gallons of spoils and 271 gallons of grout–a 50% materials and spoils reduction. At the same time, Dandelion’s rig collects all the waste, so it’s not spread across the yard, Hannun says.

https://www.fastcompany.com/40440653/how-cheap-does-geotherm...

Unless the actual drilling technology has changed, it is nothing "new", an example of a "common" compact micropiling rig (also suitable for wells):

http://www.massenzarigs.com/company/drilling-rig-mi4

Re: Google spinoff Dandelion uses ground energy to heat and cool homes

#52

Post by jpao79 »

martin_bech wrote: post #27

This makes no sense.. systems like this have existed for many years, and are not uncommon here in Denmark. But the newest thing is air to water heatpumps. They are even more effective, and have lower upfront cost. I just had one installed at my vacation home. It heats about 200 square meters and an indoor pool. It even has en app.. https://volundvt.dk/produkter/luft-til-vand-varmepumpe/sorti...

I think that's the beauty of it. Just need to reframe the negative spin into a positive spin.

If what you are saying is true, i.e.:

a.) the technology for geothermal exists and is commonplace in Europe

b.) the financials for geothermal work out

c.) all geothermal requires is awareness of a.) and b.)

then marketing to get US consumers to adopt it is an amazing idea. Dandelion and Google should be applauded!

Re: Google spinoff Dandelion uses ground energy to heat and cool homes

#53

Post by raverbashing »

jaclaz wrote: post #45
raverbashing wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does it really need to go 80m deep? Seems like a very deep hole They're probably looking at a width of 10cm tops from their description.

It depends on the geology underneath (I have no idea what is under the area they are currently covering) the amount of heat exchange can vary a lot, even within the same type of soil/rock. As well the diameter of the bored hole implies a given diameter of the inner pipes, and they have obviously different thermal exchange capacity, though you can use smaller pipes using higher pressure in them. Here there are some "g…

Thanks, that explains it well!

Re: Google spinoff Dandelion uses ground energy to heat and cool homes

#54

Post by jpao79 »

jacknews wrote: post #2

There doesn't appear to be anything new about this, ground-source heat pumps have been available for domestic use for quite some time. And going by the name, and looks, it's actually an air-source heat-pump, but I could be wrong.

If geothermal has indeed been available for quite some time and the finances work out for the US consumer, BUT there has been no significant US consumer adoption, shouldn't we be applauding Dandelion and Google for using the Google brand awareness to drive awareness around and shining the light on this proven, environmentally and economically sustainable technology?

Even better if the existing geothermal and utility incumbents rise to the challenge and out-market and out-engineering naive Google to drive even greater adoption of sustainable tech!

Re: Google spinoff Dandelion uses ground energy to heat and cool homes

#55

Post by ericd »

mikeyouse wrote: post #46
oldcynic wrote: post #6

Misprint? Commonly available ground source systems can save upto 75%. That's way ahead of the article's claimed 20%. At 20% it's simply not worth the cost of installation. Dandelion's website won't load to let me check.

If I'm reading it correctly, the 20% annual savings figure is for the financed installation. They claim 70% annual savings for the cash installation. So their claim is that even if you include the financing payments, you'll still be paying >20% less for energy throughout the year. See the graphic at the top here: https://dandelionenergy.com/much-money-will-i-save-poughkeep...

I wonder how their economic viability changes if interest rates double. A lot of these kinds of companies seem to have assumptions of historically cheap money baked in.

Re: Google spinoff Dandelion uses ground energy to heat and cool homes

#56

Post by jqkeller »

tclancy wrote: post #44
jqkeller wrote: post #28

Ground Source (geothermal) heat pumps are not new, but Dandelion is doing interesting/innovative things. Here is my understanding from keeping track of what they're up to for a little while. First they've developed a new drilling rig to try and drop the drilling time, cost and mess by 10x. Call the drilling traditionally 50% of the cost. This is for doing vertical bore holes, instead of horizontal trenches. Second, t…

>The data collection/marketing is ground breaking for residential HVAC, but I would guess probably nothing too amazing compared to any modern web company. Is there some way to see what data they collect/ provide? My client has been providing insight into geothermal installs for 4-5 years now: http://groundenergysupport.com/wp/ -- still the most fulfilling thing I ever built.

My understanding of their data innovation is on the marketing side. What I heard is they're narrowing their marketing to only homes on heating oil or propane, essentially not going after houses on the natural gas infrastructure. The gas distribution data at the residence level is not super public.

Re: Google spinoff Dandelion uses ground energy to heat and cool homes

#57

Post by EADGBE »

sp332 wrote: post #12
jacknews wrote: post #2

There doesn't appear to be anything new about this, ground-source heat pumps have been available for domestic use for quite some time. And going by the name, and looks, it's actually an air-source heat-pump, but I could be wrong.

Dandelion uses a cheaper drilling method to reduce up-front costs. https://blog.x.company/introducing-dandelion-2706eded169a

Reduced cost, but still the expense of a ground-source setup (20k is quoted in article).

Re: Google spinoff Dandelion uses ground energy to heat and cool homes

#58

Post by bitminer »

jqkeller wrote: post #28

Ground Source (geothermal) heat pumps are not new, but Dandelion is doing interesting/innovative things. Here is my understanding from keeping track of what they're up to for a little while. First they've developed a new drilling rig to try and drop the drilling time, cost and mess by 10x. Call the drilling traditionally 50% of the cost. This is for doing vertical bore holes, instead of horizontal trenches. Second, t…

I moved into a new apartment last year, served by a district energy utility. My winter electric heating bill went from $180/month to $40/month.

And now I get AC too. At a similar cost.

Now, the new apartment has half the window area and is a bit closer to the ground. But still that is a huge saving.

The utility's infrastructure serves about 25 blocks in a rapidly developing area. They use the "geothermal" constant ground temperature and natural gas heating.

They've been doing this for about 6 years.

Re: Google spinoff Dandelion uses ground energy to heat and cool homes

#59

Post by martin_bech »

jpao79 wrote: post #52
martin_bech wrote: post #27

This makes no sense.. systems like this have existed for many years, and are not uncommon here in Denmark. But the newest thing is air to water heatpumps. They are even more effective, and have lower upfront cost. I just had one installed at my vacation home. It heats about 200 square meters and an indoor pool. It even has en app.. https://volundvt.dk/produkter/luft-til-vand-varmepumpe/sorti...

I think that's the beauty of it. Just need to reframe the negative spin into a positive spin. If what you are saying is true, i.e.: a.) the technology for geothermal exists and is commonplace in Europe b.) the financials for geothermal work out c.) all geothermal requires is awareness of a.) and b.) then marketing to get US consumers to adopt it is an amazing idea. Dandelion and Google should be applauded!

That wasnt really my point. My point was twofold, that 1. the tech exists, so way praise google X etc? 2. Its already outdated.. air to water heatpumps are moore efficient, cheaper and easier to install. The ground based heat system require a very large yard or similar to lay pretty massive amounts of pipes to be effective. Thats also a very big part of the cost.
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