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AI winter is well on its way

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381–390 of 518 posts

Re: AI winter is well on its way

#381
I think the most important question is what 'winter' really means in this context. The new concepts in AI tend to follow the hype cycle so the disillusionment will certainly come. One thing is the general public see the amazing things Tesla or Google do with deep learning and extrapolate this thinking we're on the brink of creating artificial general intelligence. The disappointment will be even bigger if DL fails to deliver its promises like self-driving cars.

Of course the situation now is different than 30 years ago because AI has proved to be effective in many areas so the research won't just stop. The way I understand this 'AI winter' is that deep learning might be the current local maximum of AI techniques and will soon reach the dead end where tweaking neural networks won't lead to any real progress.

Re: AI winter is well on its way

#382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never claimed AI was boring or run of the mill, just that it's not in my current interest. It's when I hear Hawking make claims like this, I call ignorance. "Computers can, in theory, emulate human intelligence, and exceed it,' he said. 'Success in creating effective AI, could be the biggest event in the history of our civilization. Or the worst. We just don't know. So we cannot know if we will be infinitely helped…

So, Hawking's preposition is that AI can surpass human intelligence. Is this the part you're disagreeing with? It's one thing to disagree, and it's another to call it ignorant. I for one agree that it can / will surpass human intelligence, it's just a question of when.

I think it's completely possible AI can surpass our intelligence. Whether it's outside of our awareness or control, not likely.

Re: AI winter is well on its way

#383
post #139

Warning 23 year old CS grad angst ridden post: I'm very sick of the AI hype train. I took a PR class for my last year of college, and they couldn't help but mention it. LG Smart TV ads mention it, Microsoft commercials, my 60 year old tech illiterate Dad. Do any end users really know what it's about? Probably not, nor should that matter, but it's very triggering to see something that was once a big part of CS turned…

You can finish a CS undergrad without taking any AI course? Or just haven't taken one yet? It's very helpful to go through even a tiny bit of AI: A Modern Approach to cut through a lot of the hype. What annoys me is that when people say "Machine Learning" these days they almost invariably mean deep learning, ignoring all the rest of AI. > I can't even skim through the news without hearing Elon Musk and Steven Hawking…

I know right, the school I went to wasn't exactly the best.

I skimmed through sections 4 & 5, optimization processing was difficult to understand.

When I was in elementary school, I remember pitying the mentally disabled children, knowing their financial success was destined, so I connected with the g-factor definition. I really think general intelligence is more of a sense of all clusters awareness, whether it be social or cognitive. I've met tons of great students in Math courses who simply cannot converse with the general public. I've also met tons of people on the streets of my city who would have a difficult time understanding high school algebra.

As for Section 5, I do think the rise of AI over humanity is completely in our grasp. I really should take a course on the subject before I sound like the people that I'm criticizing for ignorance, but from a general perspective, I cannot see it outside of our control. As Eliezer said, we can make predictions, but only time will clear the fog.

Re: AI winter is well on its way

#384
post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not like humanity really needs another chess playing program 20 years after IBM solved that problem (but now utilizing 1000x more compute power). I just find all these game playing contraptions really uninteresting. There are plenty real world problems to be solved of much higher practicality. Moravec's paradox in full glow.

The fact that it beat Stockfish9 is not what is impressive with AlphaZero. What was impressive was the way Stockfish9 was beaten. AlphaZero played like a human player, making sacrifices for position that stockfish thought were detrimental. When it played as white, the fact that is mostly started with the Queen pawn (despite that the King pawn is "best by test") and the way AlphaZero used Stockfish pawnstructure and t…

Two observations:

Just because Fischer preferred 1. e4, it doesn't make it better than other openings. https://en.chessbase.com/post/1-e4-best-by-test-part-1

Playing like a human for me also means making human mistakes. A chess-playing computer playing like a 4000 rated "human" is useless, one that can be configured to play at different ELOs is more interesting, although most can do that and there's no ML needed, nor huge amounts of computing power.

Re: AI winter is well on its way

#385
post #348

I was recently "playing" with some radiology data. I had no chance to identify diagnoses myself with untrained eyes, something that probably takes years for a decent radiologist to master. Just by using DenseNet-BC-100-12 I ended up with 83% ROC AUC after a few hours of training. In 4 out of 12 categories this classifier beat best human performing radiologists. Now the very same model with no other change than adjust…

I don't think the claim is that AI isn't useful. It's that it's oversold. In any case, I don't think you can tell much about how well your classifier is working for something like cancer diagnoses unless you know how many false negatives you have (and how that compares to how many false negatives a radiologist makes).

There are two sides to this:

- how good humans are in detecting cancer (hint: not very good) and if having an automated system even as a "second opinion" next to an expert might not be useful?

- there are metrics for capturing true/false positives/negatives one can focus on during learning optimization

From studies you might have noticed that expert radiologists have e.g. F1-score at 0.45 and on average they score 0.39, which sounds really bad. Your system manages to push average to 0.44, which might be worse than the best radiologist out there, but better than an average radiologist [1]. Is this really being oversold? (I am not addressing possible problems with overly optimistic datasets etc. which are real concerns)

[1] https://stanfordmlgroup.github.io/projects/chexnet/

Re: AI winter is well on its way

#386
"it is striking that the system spent long seconds trying to decide what exactly is sees in front (whether that be a pedestrian, bike, vehicle or whatever else) rather than making the only logical decision in these circumstances, which was to make sure not to hit it."

That is striking. It always sort of bothered me that AI is really a big conglomeration of many different concepts. What people are working on is deep learning for machines, but we think that means "replicating human skill/behavior". It's not. Machines will be good at what they are good at, and humans good at what they're good at. It's an uphill battle if your expectation is for a machine that processes like a human, because the human brain does not process things like computer architectures do.

Now, if some aspiring scientist wanted to skip all that and really try to replicate (in a machine) how the human brain does things, I think such a person would be starting from a very different perspective than even modern AI computing.

Re: AI winter is well on its way

#387
post #348

I was recently "playing" with some radiology data. I had no chance to identify diagnoses myself with untrained eyes, something that probably takes years for a decent radiologist to master. Just by using DenseNet-BC-100-12 I ended up with 83% ROC AUC after a few hours of training. In 4 out of 12 categories this classifier beat best human performing radiologists. Now the very same model with no other change than adjust…

AI winters are a result of a massive disparity between the expectations of the general public and the reality of where the technology currently sits. Just like an asset bubble, the value of the industry as a whole pops as people collectively realize that AI, while not being worthless, is worth significantly less than they thought.

Understand that in pop-sci circles over the past several years the general public is being exposed to stories warning about the singularity by well respected people like Stephen Hawking and Elon Musk (http://time.com/3614349/artificial-intelligence-singularity-...). Autonomous vehicles are on the roads and Boston Dynamics is showing very real robot demonstrations. Deep learning is breaking records in what we thought was possible with machine learning. All of this progress has excited an irrational exuberance in the general public.

But people don't have a good concept of what these technologies can't do, mainly because researchers, business people, and journalists don't want to tell them--they want the money and attention. But eventually the general public wises up to the unfulfillment of expectations, and drives their attention elsewhere. Here we have the AI winter.

Re: AI winter is well on its way

#388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not like humanity really needs another chess playing program 20 years after IBM solved that problem (but now utilizing 1000x more compute power). I just find all these game playing contraptions really uninteresting. There are plenty real world problems to be solved of much higher practicality. Moravec's paradox in full glow.

It's not like the research on games is at the expense of other more worthy goals. It is a well constrained problem that lets you understand the limitations of your method. Great for making progress. Alpha zero didn't just play chess well, it learned how to play chess well (and could generalize to other games). I'd forgive it 10000 times the resources for that.

>it learned how to play chess well

This. Learning to play a game is one thing. Learning how to teach computers to learn a game is another thing. Yes chess programs have been good before, but that's missing the point a little bit. The novel bit is not that it can beat another computer, but how it learned how to do so.

Re: AI winter is well on its way

#389
post #348

I was recently "playing" with some radiology data. I had no chance to identify diagnoses myself with untrained eyes, something that probably takes years for a decent radiologist to master. Just by using DenseNet-BC-100-12 I ended up with 83% ROC AUC after a few hours of training. In 4 out of 12 categories this classifier beat best human performing radiologists. Now the very same model with no other change than adjust…

I don't get the sentiment of the article either. I can't speak for researchers but software engineers are living through very exciting times.

  State of the art in numbers:
  Image Classification - ~$55, 9hrs (ImageNet)
  Object Detection - ~$40, 6hrs (COCO)
  Machine Translation - ~$40, 6hrs (WMT '14 EN-DE)
  Question Answering - ~$5, 0.8hrs (SQuAD)
  Speech recognition - ~$90, 13hrs (LibriSpeech)
  Language Modeling - ~$490, 74hrs (LM1B)
"If you think Deep (Reinforcement) Learning is going to solve AGI, you are out of luck" --

I don't know. Duplex equipped with a way to minimize his own uncertainties sounds quite scary.

Re: AI winter is well on its way

#390
post #330

Oh, I thought "AI winter" would refer to a state of ruin after AI had come into existence and destroyed everything, analogous to nuclear winter.

AI Winter is a very well-known term in the industry referring to a general lack of funding of AI research, after the last time AI was overhyped.

I guess it could be used about anything that experiences a low level of interest, then.
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