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Tesla in autopilot mode crashes into parked Laguna Beach police cruiser

latimes.com

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Re: Tesla in autopilot mode crashes into parked Laguna Beach police cruiser

#301

Post by djsumdog »

Let's make the roads out of rubber and the wheels out of pavement. I feel like this is the backwards mentality with autonomous vehicles. I wrote a while ago about how they simply cannot solve the transportation problem, at least not in a way that's cheaper than just building mass transit:

https://penguindreams.org/blog/self-driving-cars-will-not-so...

I realize this particular case is different with us talking about assistance/safety features, but I still feel we're going the wrong direction here. These features reduce your awareness. They're like a teenage driver you constantly have to monitor, but worse.

They teach people to be comfortable and less alert with systems that have potentially fatal bugs that we can't yet identify.

We can build mass transit now, at a fraction of the cost of developing the tech for automated vehicles. There are so many corner cases, with highways, city driving conditions that simply cannot pan out for autonomous vehicles without a lot of testing; and a lot of people getting injured and dying.

I wish people would shelve this pipe dream for now. Maybe once we have really solid rail transport again in the US, like we use to decades ago, and rich and poor people can have a means to work even in smaller cities; then we can work on frivolous junk that will benefit the few that can afford it. Right now we just run the risk of killing more people who can't.

Re: Tesla in autopilot mode crashes into parked Laguna Beach police cruiser

#302

Post by shanghaiaway »

askafriend wrote: post #89
shanghaiaway wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are you asking me? Ask Tesla! And they won't answer. Don't be a fan boy.

My point was that your list doesn't answer the most important questions and trying to proxy any information from a selected list like that is flawed thinking.

Tesla does not answer the most important questions about their own product.

Re: Tesla in autopilot mode crashes into parked Laguna Beach police cruiser

#303

Post by djsumdog »

mentat wrote: post #172
confiscate wrote: post #91

I don't get it, why is it so hard to detect stationary objects in front of you? wouldn't that be the "hello world" of any self-driving tech? Every time I ask this question, the response is "radar as a technology has too much noise, not accurate enough to detect stationary objects". But it DOES detect stationary objects. Otherwise no one would even turn on Tesla AP at all. Why is it so hard to detect stationary object…

Subaru Eye Sight does this reliably and actually auto brakes correctly. Going from that to APv2 has been a real step back. There's a curve on 92W that it consistently try to accelerate you into an embankment. I think Elon just doesn't understand the real world reality of how bad AP is.

It really bothers me manufacturers are pushing incremental updates to car safety systems. Does anyone besides me think this is a terrible idea?

Re: Tesla in autopilot mode crashes into parked Laguna Beach police cruiser

#304

Post by theCricketer »

Elon Musk has constantly underestimated the difficulty of autonomous driving.

This video (https://youtu.be/wsixsRI-Sz4?t=1h18m28s) shows Elon Musk, two years ago, saying the following:

"I basically consider autonomous driving to be a solved problem".

"A Model S and Model X can drive with greater safety than a person, already. Right now."

"We are less than two years away from complete autonomy".

Re: Tesla in autopilot mode crashes into parked Laguna Beach police cruiser

#305

Post by abalone »

Too wrote: post #284
abalone wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly: you get that benefit with adaptive cruise control. What autopilot adds is autosteer. What’s the benefit there that doesn’t violate TOS? You are supposed to keep your hands on the wheel and pay full attention just the same.

It moves your mind from micro to macro. Instead of focusing on balancing the car within the lane I can look 500m in front and plan further ahead. I can also spend 2 seconds with eyes off road adjusting the navigation compared to without where you can only spend maybe max 0.5sec. I also feel much fresher after a long trip, constant minor adjustments sounds minor but once you've driven with a good lane keeping aid(not…

A lot can happen in 2 seconds. I hear you and appreciate the detailed description, the best one I’ve read yet. But within it are hints that you are trusting the system more than the terms of service permit.

You feel comfortable looking away a full 400% more than you would under manual control. There is not supposed to be any delta. And for many people, it’s probably more than 2 seconds. Many of these accidents including the recent fatal one happened inside of a few seconds of distraction.

Re: Tesla in autopilot mode crashes into parked Laguna Beach police cruiser

#306

Post by tim333 »

api wrote: post #198
olliej wrote: post #6

I really wish all the car manufacturers would stop with this bullshit "you still have to be driving it" self driving nonsense. Claiming that the driver is still responsible for driving the car, while using a system designed to encourage the "driver" to not pay attention is a dumb idea, and all I can see is this kind of thing leading to regulations the delay actual self driving cars. I'm not a self-driving car fanboy…

Self driving strikes me as a technology with a hard boolean quality threshold. Either it is as good as a human or it just doesn't work. This is a lot like rocketry. A rocket that meets 95% of its design requirements explodes, crashes, or fails to reach the proper orbit. Its damn near 100% or failure. Too bad Elon can't see this. I think Tesla's obsession with autopilot is misplaced. Give me a solid reliable affordabl…

Elon's argument is that it meets your hard boolean quality threshold and is as good as a human, and he's aiming for 10x lower accidents than humans. That may not be true but that's what he's going for.

Re: Tesla in autopilot mode crashes into parked Laguna Beach police cruiser

#307

Post by DannyBee »

mikeash wrote: post #169
DannyBee wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Start with: https://www.ntsb.gov/news/press-releases/Pages/PR20170912.as... Also, 18 crashes so far where autopilot was enabled? vs so far, literally zero known crashes across everyone else? Do you not find it somewhat interesting that in zero other cases has the NTSB found that TACC or the design of a TACC played a role in the crash? I'd also point out: the supplier of their original crash tech broke up with them an…

I'm extremely skeptical that there have been zero TACC-involved crashes with other cars. Has the NTSB or other organization actually put out a statement to that effect somewhere, or are you just basing this on an inability to locate any when searching?

Again, please provide any data that says otherwise. At all. Any!

So far the data in this conversation has been incredibly one sided, with me providing data, and you providing skepticism.

These systems exist in a lot of cars, yet nothing until Tesla suggests any issues anywhere (i'm ignoring things like news reports which are fairly biased) Therefore, the extraordinary claim is not that Tesla is worse, it's that Tesla isn't worse.

Re: Tesla in autopilot mode crashes into parked Laguna Beach police cruiser

#308

Post by Maxion »

DannyBee wrote: post #134
mikeash wrote: post #30

How many non-Autopilot cars have crashed into parked vehicles? It happens a lot, to the extent that a lot of states have “move over” laws explicitly designed to reduce it. Does Autopilot actually make the problem worse, or is it just more newsworthy?

If you go look at IIHS, they have tests that will tell you exactly how good non-Autopilot cars are at this kind of crash avoidance: I cannot find any current (2018) car that crashes into the parked car. (I only spot-checked prior years). I found one in 2014 (audi q5) that hits the car at 1mph when going 12mph. http://www.iihs.org/iihs/ratings/vehicle/v/audi/q5-4-door-su... By contrast, the 2014 subaru outback avoids…

But that's not actual data on crashes. What op is suggesting is that crashes per mile driven is a more relevant statistic. Obviously self driving cars will be involved in accidents, the question is, is it happening more frequently than with human drivers? If yes, then there's a problem and an indication that the technology is not yet mature.

Re: Tesla in autopilot mode crashes into parked Laguna Beach police cruiser

#309

Post by hndamien »

kaitai wrote: post #213
hndamien wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have full self driving hardware != full self driving software != full self driving capabilities. Auto pilot - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autopilot "An autopilot is a system used to control the trajectory of an aircraft without constant 'hands-on' control by a human operator being required. Autopilots do not replace human operators, but instead they assist them in controlling the aircraft. This allows them to focus…

It's great that you're willing to take a prescriptivist rather than descriptivist linguistic stance, but it's not that useful when it comes to consumer behavior.

I hardly think that is the distinction. The word is literally accompanied by a definition after its first use.

"Your Tesla will match speed to traffic conditions, keep within a lane, automatically change lanes without requiring driver input, transition from one freeway to another, exit the freeway when your destination is near, self-park when near a parking spot and be summoned to and from your garage.

Tesla’s Enhanced Autopilot software has begun rolling out and features will continue to be introduced as validation is completed, subject to regulatory approval. Every driver is responsible for remaining alert and active when using Autopilot, and must be prepared to take action at any time."

Re: Tesla in autopilot mode crashes into parked Laguna Beach police cruiser

#310

Post by Maxion »

Tomte wrote: post #290

I wish all those advanced assist functions in today's upper middle-class cars would trickle down to cheaper cars faster. That would give us much more safety now. It seems Teslas autopilot cannot reliably do much more than conventional lane assist etc. Tesla could disable autonomous lane changing and autonomous changing of streets, requiring driver's input for all changes of direction (that are not smoothing out, but…

The thing is, a tesla crashing while running on autopilot is more newsworthy than a tesla crashing while being driven. We should not let anecdotal evidence drive our fears.
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