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Tesla in autopilot mode crashes into parked Laguna Beach police cruiser

latimes.com

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Re: Tesla in autopilot mode crashes into parked Laguna Beach police cruiser

#261

Post by mrb »

AceJohnny2 wrote: post #14
olliej wrote: post #6

I really wish all the car manufacturers would stop with this bullshit "you still have to be driving it" self driving nonsense. Claiming that the driver is still responsible for driving the car, while using a system designed to encourage the "driver" to not pay attention is a dumb idea, and all I can see is this kind of thing leading to regulations the delay actual self driving cars. I'm not a self-driving car fanboy…

Blame Elon Musk. I'm serious. He's been promising "self-driving" for years, except the damn technology isn't ready/safe enough for what people are clearly using this from. The manufacturer puts a warning label, but the usage model/UI is clearly flawed. His engineers know this, which is why Tesla's self-driving group has had such a high turnover rate over the last few years. Musk keeps overriding them.

«the damn technology isn't ready/safe enough»

What data are you basing this statement on? Or is this just your vague gut feeling based on reading about a few accidents in the news? I thought statistical data showed otherwise, that the technology was safe enough (ie. better than humans).

Edit: removed "debunked stats".

Re: Tesla in autopilot mode crashes into parked Laguna Beach police cruiser

#262

Post by true_religion »

TAForObvReasons wrote: post #167
dirkgently wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla's "Auto-pilot" is one of the most blatant market-speak lies I have come across lately, and they have been getting away it.

"Move fast and break things" is probably the worst philosophy to sweep over SV. It encourages a worldview where externalities that potentially break laws and maim or kill other people should be disregarded in the pursuit of "progress" and profits. But it's nice to see the HN community finally start to come to this realization

That.... was just Facebook's idea. I don't know any other company apart from those founded by former Facebook employees that took the monicker seriously.

A more mainstream paradigm was 'disrupt!' as in disrupt old industries, by applying the rules in ways that they couldn't aided by technology that they are disinclined to use. For instance Uber used 'disrupt!' as the centerpiece of their business, by acting as contracting service for limo companies, before finally expanding the definition of 'limo' to include any Toyota made after 2015.

Re: Tesla in autopilot mode crashes into parked Laguna Beach police cruiser

#263

Post by cromwellian »

ajross wrote: post #259
AceJohnny2 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Blame Elon Musk. I'm serious. He's been promising "self-driving" for years, except the damn technology isn't ready/safe enough for what people are clearly using this from. The manufacturer puts a warning label, but the usage model/UI is clearly flawed. His engineers know this, which is why Tesla's self-driving group has had such a high turnover rate over the last few years. Musk keeps overriding them.

> except the damn technology isn't ready/safe enough for what people are clearly using this from Outrageously false. These incidents are so rare that they have whole news stories written about every single one. How many crashes were there in Laguna Beach yesterday? Tesla accident rates in aggregate are quite good. Under autopilot the data is noisy but still underneath the level of an average car (not as low as luxury…

How many Tesla's are there? How many crash without autopilot, and how many crash with autopilot? How does this compare with other low-ownership rate cars in the same class?

Seems to me that it's premature to me making bold claims like this. Of cars costing over $100k, what's the accident rate?

Re: Tesla in autopilot mode crashes into parked Laguna Beach police cruiser

#264

Post by abalone »

Bedon292 wrote: post #255
abalone wrote: post #102

I keep wondering what the customer benefit of Level 2 autopilot is if not to lower your attention and relax your mind. Tesla's "out" is that drivers are supposed to retain full attention and oversight of the autopilot system -- but then if you strictly follow this rule, what is the benefit of autopilot? I can see the benefit to Tesla and future Tesla customers of essentially crowdsourced fleet learning. But what is t…

The freeing of the physical part is really the benefit for me. My knees are bad, and sitting in stop and go traffic, or even long traffic lights can actually be painful. Its not bad, but it gets really annoying. Being able to physically move my leg is amazing. You probably do get a lot of that with just adaptive cruise control these days as well, but no real experience with that. The mental load is still identical, b…

Exactly: you get that benefit with adaptive cruise control. What autopilot adds is autosteer. What’s the benefit there that doesn’t violate TOS? You are supposed to keep your hands on the wheel and pay full attention just the same.

Re: Tesla in autopilot mode crashes into parked Laguna Beach police cruiser

#265

Post by ajross »

cromwellian wrote: post #263
ajross wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> except the damn technology isn't ready/safe enough for what people are clearly using this from Outrageously false. These incidents are so rare that they have whole news stories written about every single one. How many crashes were there in Laguna Beach yesterday? Tesla accident rates in aggregate are quite good. Under autopilot the data is noisy but still underneath the level of an average car (not as low as luxury…

How many Tesla's are there? How many crash without autopilot, and how many crash with autopilot? How does this compare with other low-ownership rate cars in the same class? Seems to me that it's premature to me making bold claims like this. Of cars costing over $100k, what's the accident rate?

There were numbers thrown around in the last thread on this, I gave you my memory. The answer is "Teslas are safe enough". Human drivers with the same accident rate wouldn't raise even a hair on an eyebrow.

And the "bold claims" bit is exactly backward. You are the one claiming that the technology "isn't ready" based on sensationalist local news story and not actual numbers.

Re: Tesla in autopilot mode crashes into parked Laguna Beach police cruiser

#266

Post by _Codemonkeyism »

mrb wrote: post #261
AceJohnny2 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Blame Elon Musk. I'm serious. He's been promising "self-driving" for years, except the damn technology isn't ready/safe enough for what people are clearly using this from. The manufacturer puts a warning label, but the usage model/UI is clearly flawed. His engineers know this, which is why Tesla's self-driving group has had such a high turnover rate over the last few years. Musk keeps overriding them.

« the damn technology isn't ready/safe enough » What data are you basing this statement on? Or is this just your vague gut feeling based on reading about a few accidents in the news? I thought statistical data showed otherwise, that the technology was safe enough (ie. better than humans). Edit: removed "debunked stats".

These numbers from Tesla have been debunked several times (see every older discussion on this on HN) because of the flawed methodology (mostly comparing apples to oranges).

Re: Tesla in autopilot mode crashes into parked Laguna Beach police cruiser

#267

Post by mrtest002 »

In the last 24 hours, 100 people died in car crashes - but 2 crashes a year apart and its "why does this keep happening". I realize the numbers are not comparable - however, 100 people dying a day is seen as act of God, but 100% driver-less society and getting 1 person dying a week will get these cars banned probably.

Re: Tesla in autopilot mode crashes into parked Laguna Beach police cruiser

#268

Post by jcranmer »

King-Aaron wrote: post #69
Schwolop wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wrote the initial interface specification for the co-ordination system in Rio's open-pit mines. The mere fact that we were able to account for the state of every moving thing in the pit makes this a completely different proposition to self-driving vehicles in an uncontrolled real-world environment. At a guess it's at least ten to a hundred times easier.

Eventually this could be put into place in the broader traffic ecosystem - if all the cars on the road were required to have a transponder sort of arrangement on board, you could have a central point of control, and perhaps tie in people's phones etc to locate pedestrians. I do want to note that I am aware that there is an unfathomably large amount of complexity behind that however.

Because my dog will totally have his mobile phone on him when I'm chasing him down. Or my little kid chasing after his ball...

Re: Tesla in autopilot mode crashes into parked Laguna Beach police cruiser

#269

Post by givinguflac »

olliej wrote: post #6

I really wish all the car manufacturers would stop with this bullshit "you still have to be driving it" self driving nonsense. Claiming that the driver is still responsible for driving the car, while using a system designed to encourage the "driver" to not pay attention is a dumb idea, and all I can see is this kind of thing leading to regulations the delay actual self driving cars. I'm not a self-driving car fanboy…

To be fair, the system really isn’t designed to encourage the driver to not pay attention. Quite the opposite.

Re: Tesla in autopilot mode crashes into parked Laguna Beach police cruiser

#270

Post by ajross »

abalone wrote: post #102

I keep wondering what the customer benefit of Level 2 autopilot is if not to lower your attention and relax your mind. Tesla's "out" is that drivers are supposed to retain full attention and oversight of the autopilot system -- but then if you strictly follow this rule, what is the benefit of autopilot? I can see the benefit to Tesla and future Tesla customers of essentially crowdsourced fleet learning. But what is t…

> But what is the benefit right now if you strictly follow the rule of remaining alert enough to intervene at a second's notice?

You have an extra failsafe for those moments where you fail to remain alert. People keep treating these incidents in isolation and failing to account for the fact that human drivers make exactly this kind of fuckup every hour of every day, and lives are lost. Every day.

You get that right? Cars. Kill. People. Every day.

Tesla is shipping systems in the absolute infancy of this technology that are already statistically indistinguishable from human drivers as far as safety goes. And the luddites here want to throw all that in the garbage because of "what is the benefit right now".

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