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Facebook Tools Are Used to Screen Out Older Job Seekers, Lawsuit Claims

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Re: Facebook Tools Are Used to Screen Out Older Job Seekers, Lawsuit Claims

#321

Post by [deleted] »

white-flame wrote: post #274
OhHeyItsE wrote: post #188

I always wonder where the myth that older developers are "slower" comes from. Dunno about you folks, but I get better and faster every year. And, for me, that productivity metric is probably approaching parabolic. You learn enough languages, frameworks, tools - all the fundamentals start to merge together. You can pick the next one up faster than you did the one you just put down. You understand how to design softwar…

As your ending suggests, older developers tend to rock the boat more. As their bosses tell them to do something, the old timers see failures of history repeating themselves and try to steer the direction elsewhere. Younger devs fall in line much easier. It can sometimes be a double-edged sword. Some older devs get hung up on bikeshedding and tunnel visioning about old specifics instead of just getting work done with…

[deleted]

Re: Facebook Tools Are Used to Screen Out Older Job Seekers, Lawsuit Claims

#322

Post by specialist »

ryanmonroe wrote: post #196
agrippanux wrote: post #156

Age discrimination being rampant in our industry is a fantastic opportunity for an astute hiring manager. I go out of my way to hire older devs that are eschewed by typical Bay Area startups. I can get a seasoned pro with a solid background in C - and other more trendy languages - for about the same price of a 3-years-working-experience "senior dev" who likely was battlefield commissioned into the role at their last…

> I go out of my way to hire older devs that are eschewed by typical Bay Area startups Going "out of [your] way" to hire older devs sounds like age discrimination. AFAIK, age discrimination in this direction isn't illegal in America, but it seems odd that you would respond to an article decrying age-discrimination by proudly declaring that you discriminate too, in the opposite direction. Maybe you just meant that you…

aka recruiting

Re: Facebook Tools Are Used to Screen Out Older Job Seekers, Lawsuit Claims

#323

Post by yosito »

chucksmash wrote: post #190
yosito wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly I wouldn't blame age or your skill set. It seems that the interview process for software engineers is broken and I'd be willing to bet that even then highest qualified young engineers are struggling to get offers.

I don't know how you're qualifying "even the highest qualified young engineers are struggling to get offers" but that doesn't jive with my experience these past couple of years. I'm not young any more but it still feels like a job seeker's market (spoken from the viewpoint of a fine but not outstanding engineer in his mid 30s, in a tech hub)

I said I'm willing to bet, meaning I have a hunch, not actual data. My hunch is based on personal experience, reading recent posts on HN about job searching, and seeing statistics on websites like LinkedIn and Glassdoor implying that many jobs openings have hundreds of qualified applicants. Granted, my hunch may be based on trying to get jobs at well known companies which is probably more competitive by nature, especially in a global market. Getting a job building marketing software at a mediocre agency for $45k/year is probably super easy. But most people don't want that.

Re: Facebook Tools Are Used to Screen Out Older Job Seekers, Lawsuit Claims

#324

Post by tabtab »

tluyben2 wrote: post #313
tabtab wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But many startups are "ship first, debug later". When it's a pump-and-dump fashion contest, younger fingers are probably better: a fast BS-nozzle to get VC attention. If instead you want your infrastructure to last 5 or 10 years and not get hacked, then experience will pay off.

The over 40s I know are also able to produce working crap faster than the young-uns. If you call it a prototype (so the goal is showing functionality that works but later it will be tossed out and redone) then hiring me is probably going to produce a better one (less bugs and will probably last until the startup runs out of money) then it would with a ‘team of young ninjas’. As PR for VCs I can see a bunch of young p…

Re: The over 40s I know are also able to produce working [prototypes] faster...

Not necessarily if it has to be built in some stack or language flavor of the month (and VC's check). If you change entire tool-sets every 18 months, I bet the younger folks will be able to re-learn faster. I'm 40+ myself, and am saying this from experience. It's unfortunate our industry is so fad-driven, but I didn't create humans, I just work among them.

I recommend one focus on a domain (insurance IT, healthcare IT, etc.) when they get around 40. Your domain knowledge will have market value. Reformatting your head all the time is not a good career strategy for most. (There is some value to some new IT things, but a good portion is hype and gimmicks.)

Re: Facebook Tools Are Used to Screen Out Older Job Seekers, Lawsuit Claims

#325

Post by bo1024 »

biztos wrote: post #296
biztos wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks, I didn't know this was a Thing in academia. Just found a nice intro here, starting a few slides in: https://fairmlclass.github.io/1.html

OT but I'm surprised this got down voted. Anybody care to tell me what etiquette I violated here?

No idea

Re: Facebook Tools Are Used to Screen Out Older Job Seekers, Lawsuit Claims

#326

Post by tluyben2 »

tabtab wrote: post #324
tluyben2 wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The over 40s I know are also able to produce working crap faster than the young-uns. If you call it a prototype (so the goal is showing functionality that works but later it will be tossed out and redone) then hiring me is probably going to produce a better one (less bugs and will probably last until the startup runs out of money) then it would with a ‘team of young ninjas’. As PR for VCs I can see a bunch of young p…

Re: The over 40s I know are also able to produce working [prototypes] faster... Not necessarily if it has to be built in some stack or language flavor of the month (and VC's check). If you change entire tool-sets every 18 months, I bet the younger folks will be able to re-learn faster. I'm 40+ myself, and am saying this from experience. It's unfortunate our industry is so fad-driven, but I didn't create humans, I jus…

It might be different in different regions and different markets. Here VCs definitely don't check (or care). I find that they are generally more interested in buzzword bingo on a more abstract level; AI, ML, Blockchain etc. That said, I'm not building a religion; if the latest tech is a business goal, then it will happen.

And i'm also not sure if it's true that 'we' would be slower to learn these things; I keep on top because, I feel, that as CTO, I need to understand what is out there and if there is something promising that can help us long term, I want to be early to find it. So I do learn every new fad, and, not to sound cocky because I believe it's just experience, there is not much to learn; they are all, in a lot of ways, rehashes. Sometimes you see something really innovative, but that's not the thing that ends up being a fad or even remotely popular. After 30+ years of programming in many different technologies/projects (especially the functional experience helps a lot these days) etc it is easy to recognize the patterns and the goals the programmer was going for when building that new tech. Not that I would want that job as a non-cto at a startup :)

Re: Facebook Tools Are Used to Screen Out Older Job Seekers, Lawsuit Claims

#327

Post by somebodynew »

imbur wrote: post #248
ryanmonroe wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I go out of my way to hire older devs that are eschewed by typical Bay Area startups Going "out of [your] way" to hire older devs sounds like age discrimination. AFAIK, age discrimination in this direction isn't illegal in America, but it seems odd that you would respond to an article decrying age-discrimination by proudly declaring that you discriminate too, in the opposite direction. Maybe you just meant that you…

Going out of your way to recruit and have older applicants apply is not discrimination as long as you treat all applicants equally once they apply.

Is there some kind of asymmetry that prevents this logic from being applied with "older" replaced by other inherent physical attributes like race, or do you think that wouldn't be discrimination either?

Re: Facebook Tools Are Used to Screen Out Older Job Seekers, Lawsuit Claims

#328

Post by jcadam »

I currently work (as of 6 months ago) at a company where the software engineering staff is made up almost exclusively of two types of people:

1.) young 20-somethings who were hired right out of college. They do all of the coding and grunt work (for cheap).

2.) A smaller set of 55+ engineers who are coasting into retirement. They do all of the architecture and design work.

I was recruited rather aggressively and eventually accepted an offer (I'm definitely being paid on the high side for this area). As a 38 year old, this place is incredibely lonely (I have no "peers"). I have absolutely no idea why they hired me. The "elders", who have been at the company for 20+ years, are hostile, backstabbing and hoard all of the interesting work (and credit) for themselves. My "lead" (not the manager who made the decision to hire me - I never see that person now) seems to be actively sidelining me - I've been assigned nothing but grunt work.

Re: Facebook Tools Are Used to Screen Out Older Job Seekers, Lawsuit Claims

#329

Post by paulddraper »

fixermark wrote: post #288
paulddraper wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Once upon a time "discrimination" had positive connotations, e.g. "he has discriminating tastes". Somehow the word has been twisted to be almost exclusively negative. But show me an organization that doesn't discriminate, and I'll show you an organization of utter incompetence.

The "somehow" is no mystery; discriminatory practice was (and still is) used to stack the deck against people in the United States based on the color of their skin for hundreds of years. "President" was chosen as the title of the head of the US Executive Branch because it was a title with nearly no prestige; it was the sort of name you'd give to the Robert's Rules enforcer for community meetings. Words take on a conn…

Not a complete mystery, but also leaves English without a good substitute.

"Differentiation" is the word I have to use now.

Re: Facebook Tools Are Used to Screen Out Older Job Seekers, Lawsuit Claims

#330

Post by cmcginty »

eksemplar wrote: post #307
agrippanux wrote: post #156

Age discrimination being rampant in our industry is a fantastic opportunity for an astute hiring manager. I go out of my way to hire older devs that are eschewed by typical Bay Area startups. I can get a seasoned pro with a solid background in C - and other more trendy languages - for about the same price of a 3-years-working-experience "senior dev" who likely was battlefield commissioned into the role at their last…

I prefer hiring people in their 30ies. It’s the perfect mix of being old enough to be practical and patient and young enough to still be cheap. The cheap bit comes from being in the Danish public sector where seniority gives automatic pay increases that you can’t legally turn down, so there is that. I do wonder why people wouldn’t hire older programmers or engineers though. A lot of them are still extremely nerdy abo…

>I prefer hiring people in their 30ies.

>I’m not sure ageism is really a big problem though.

I'm not sure you can put both those statements together without sounding uninformed.

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