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Facebook Tools Are Used to Screen Out Older Job Seekers, Lawsuit Claims

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Re: Facebook Tools Are Used to Screen Out Older Job Seekers, Lawsuit Claims

#271

Post by toephu2 »

notacoward wrote: post #52

As a 53-year-old Facebook employee, I find the part about Facebook doing this for their own hiring a bit odd. To the extent that anyone has ever reacted to my age with anything other than mild surprise, people generally seem quite glad to see something besides another fresh 20-something face and to hear the voice of long experience. Then again, I didn't come in via a Facebook ad. Maybe companies use different methods…

Can you speak to ageism at facebook? You must be quite rare there. Anecdotally speaking, whenever I visit the campus it definitely is a majority of 20-somethings walking around (or at least not many devs over the age of 40. I believe there are proportionally a lot more at Google).

Re: Facebook Tools Are Used to Screen Out Older Job Seekers, Lawsuit Claims

#272

Post by GuB-42 »

OhHeyItsE wrote: post #188

I always wonder where the myth that older developers are "slower" comes from. Dunno about you folks, but I get better and faster every year. And, for me, that productivity metric is probably approaching parabolic. You learn enough languages, frameworks, tools - all the fundamentals start to merge together. You can pick the next one up faster than you did the one you just put down. You understand how to design softwar…

I think the idea comes from earlier times where programming skills came in high demand but few actually knew how to code.

I resulted in high influx of older but inexperienced people, maybe with some background in a somewhat related field like electronics. And they were probably slower than young and equally inexperienced people. Experienced developers simply weren't available.

I understand why companies may prefer younger developers now. Cheaper, less constraints, more long term potential, ... but I think that the idea that older developers are "slower" is outdated.

Re: Facebook Tools Are Used to Screen Out Older Job Seekers, Lawsuit Claims

#273

Post by reaperducer »

aianus wrote: post #249
reaperducer wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some of reasons I’ve seen for ageism in startups are cost and “not a culture fit”. Cost I understand, but I believe more experienced people end up being cheaper in the long run when you account for speed, correctness, and long term maintainability. The culture piece stems from the “would I get a beer with this person” and will he/she work as “hard” as a younger candidate with less responsibilities. Most SV companies…

> discrimination based on age is just as illegal Only if you discriminate against old people, it is legal to openly discriminate against the young. I guess I'm biased because I'm young but it's a little non-sensical since young people are the ones with student debt and record-high housing costs to pay for while 50-year-olds have decades of savings and stock market and real-estate appreciation to fall back on if they…

>50-year-olds have decades of savings and stock market and real-estate appreciation to fall back on if they find themselves unemployed.

That's a lovely stereotype, but far from the truth; which is why so many people are working into their 70's these days and why reverse mortgages are on the rise.

There was an article in the newspaper (You can Google what that is) recently that noted that more than half of Americans have less than $5,000 in retirement savings. A similar number live in apartments.

The whole "decades of savings" thing is a cultural myth that Millennials use to make themselves feel like victims. Somehow they think they're the only generation that's ever been through hard times.

Re: Facebook Tools Are Used to Screen Out Older Job Seekers, Lawsuit Claims

#274

Post by white-flame »

OhHeyItsE wrote: post #188

I always wonder where the myth that older developers are "slower" comes from. Dunno about you folks, but I get better and faster every year. And, for me, that productivity metric is probably approaching parabolic. You learn enough languages, frameworks, tools - all the fundamentals start to merge together. You can pick the next one up faster than you did the one you just put down. You understand how to design softwar…

As your ending suggests, older developers tend to rock the boat more. As their bosses tell them to do something, the old timers see failures of history repeating themselves and try to steer the direction elsewhere. Younger devs fall in line much easier.

It can sometimes be a double-edged sword. Some older devs get hung up on bikeshedding and tunnel visioning about old specifics instead of just getting work done with whatever the new environment is. However, this problem is far more represented in the big slow-moving corporate world, and go-getter active old timers looking at startups wouldn't generally fit that stereotype.

But if 2 devs are agreeably working on a complex project, the old timer will probably be faster to finish than the younger one. For non-complex projects, it's a crap shoot.

Re: Facebook Tools Are Used to Screen Out Older Job Seekers, Lawsuit Claims

#276

Post by seattle_spring »

s73v3r_ wrote: post #187
tyrust wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Resistance to constructive criticism is a potential no-hire signal.

Blaming the victim just for the sake of being contrarian is an even stronger one.

Just because someone says, "I'm a victim!" it doesn't actually make them a victim.

Re: Facebook Tools Are Used to Screen Out Older Job Seekers, Lawsuit Claims

#277

Post by tabtab »

bartread wrote: post #211
agrippanux wrote: post #156

Age discrimination being rampant in our industry is a fantastic opportunity for an astute hiring manager. I go out of my way to hire older devs that are eschewed by typical Bay Area startups. I can get a seasoned pro with a solid background in C - and other more trendy languages - for about the same price of a 3-years-working-experience "senior dev" who likely was battlefield commissioned into the role at their last…

Five of the six people on my team, including me, are over 30; four of us are over 40. I must admit that although devs with that level of experience are "expensive", they start to look a lot cheaper when you realise the additional value they add due to experience. Software development, as with many things in life, often follows the adage that you get what you pay for. (It should go without saying, but it's a sad inevi…

But many startups are "ship first, debug later". When it's a pump-and-dump fashion contest, younger fingers are probably better: a fast BS-nozzle to get VC attention. If instead you want your infrastructure to last 5 or 10 years and not get hacked, then experience will pay off.

Re: Facebook Tools Are Used to Screen Out Older Job Seekers, Lawsuit Claims

#278

Post by astrodust »

gowld wrote: post #214
agrippanux wrote: post #156

Age discrimination being rampant in our industry is a fantastic opportunity for an astute hiring manager. I go out of my way to hire older devs that are eschewed by typical Bay Area startups. I can get a seasoned pro with a solid background in C - and other more trendy languages - for about the same price of a 3-years-working-experience "senior dev" who likely was battlefield commissioned into the role at their last…

Why would you go out of your way?

You could actually read the comment and have your confusion resolved.

Re: Facebook Tools Are Used to Screen Out Older Job Seekers, Lawsuit Claims

#279

Post by aianus »

reaperducer wrote: post #273
aianus wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> discrimination based on age is just as illegal Only if you discriminate against old people, it is legal to openly discriminate against the young. I guess I'm biased because I'm young but it's a little non-sensical since young people are the ones with student debt and record-high housing costs to pay for while 50-year-olds have decades of savings and stock market and real-estate appreciation to fall back on if they…

>50-year-olds have decades of savings and stock market and real-estate appreciation to fall back on if they find themselves unemployed. That's a lovely stereotype, but far from the truth; which is why so many people are working into their 70's these days and why reverse mortgages are on the rise. There was an article in the newspaper (You can Google what that is) recently that noted that more than half of Americans h…

> Somehow they think they're the only generation that's ever been through hard times.

Not sure how you inferred this from my comment. My parents went through much harder times when they were my age.

However, unemployment would be a trivial inconvenience for them now at 50. They’d probably just retire and not bother looking for another full time gig. I don’t really know any 26-year-olds who could say the same.

Edit: I looked at the data and the median 55-59 year old in the US has US$150k in net worth vs. US$19k for the median 25-29 year old. Why would the former need extra legal protections against employment discrimination and the latter not?

Re: Facebook Tools Are Used to Screen Out Older Job Seekers, Lawsuit Claims

#280

Post by notacoward »

jmull wrote: post #247
notacoward wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Come on" yourself. Neither I nor the GP was talking about uniform application of a filter. We were talking about uniform application of a post-hiring process . Even if one could argue that it results in disparate outcomes - which you have yet to do - that's not the same as disparate treatment.

Well, the very sentence you quoted characterizes the process as a screen, in the sense of a filter. Later the post uses the actual word filter a couple times, so I know that's what the post was talking about. And, of course, a post-hiring process can function as a filter. Also, the term disparate treatment is yours -- a vague term which I merely used in the same sense you did. You used it to describe what the lawsuit…

> the term disparate treatment is yours

Untrue. It's directly from the second paragraph of the news story you clearly didn't read. It's also not vague as you claim. It's a legal term with an established definition, and it's highly relevant.

As you so politely introduced yourself to this conversation, COME ON. Again. Read before you start launching arguments that others will find laughable.

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