While I understand Ageism exists, I do see a trend change though. Take for example all these technical tracks in many companies now. All of these engineers are very tenured and usually very experienced(40+). In-fact they are considered irreplaceable by management since they set the vision of the company. Especially in the valley, the trend I notice is that you don't want to lose these "senior staff, staff engineers etc."
Facebook Tools Are Used to Screen Out Older Job Seekers, Lawsuit Claims
141–150 of 362 posts
Re: Facebook Tools Are Used to Screen Out Older Job Seekers, Lawsuit Claims
#142Earlier quoted context omitted.
> exactly to enforce various uniformity and policy standards. Wouldn't that be the exact opposite of the "disparate treatment" the lawsuit alleges?
I believe the lawsuit is talking about someone using Facebook tools or other means to specifically target subgroups of the population to be able to see a job ad. As in, older candidates would not have even been allowed to know about the job in the first place, regardless of what pipeline a candidate is placed in. So no, I don't think the properties of a pipeline after a candidate has applied would be related to the l…
> older candidates would not have even been allowed to know about the job
To be more precise, they would not have seen the job on Facebook. That's not the same as not being allowed to know about the job, and the difference matters. The question is not whether they were included by a particular venue, medium, or method. If it were, every engagement with a headhunter would be discriminating against anyone not part of their clientele. The real question is whether equal efforts were being made to reach people of different age groups across all available means. Do we know whether that's the case?
> I sincerely view the overwhelming shift to open-plan offices as partly motivated by widespread ageism
I agree that there might be an element of ageism in that choice. Any physiologist can tell you that the kinds of distraction and discomfort inherent in such an environment will affect older people more than younger ones. For the same reason, I think certain interview techniques are inherently ageist, as is a more-than-usual antipathy toward letting people work from home. I'm fortunate that I've been able to overcome these obstacles, but the very fact that they are obstacles is problematic IMO.
> a lot of HR processes that are supposed to be fair "because they apply to everyone" are actually just engineered
That's true of a lot more than HR processes, though I would caution you not to assume malice where incompetence (ignorance, insufficient diligence) would be sufficient. That said, disparate impact and disparate treatment are two different standards. Perhaps the law should address disparate impact. Or perhaps that would create its own ills. In any case, it doesn't. Uniform application of a standard or process still seems like a strong defense against charges of disparate treatment, even if those standards or processes create disparate outcomes.
Re: Facebook Tools Are Used to Screen Out Older Job Seekers, Lawsuit Claims
#143Earlier quoted context omitted.
No way. Sorry to be blunt. Sure, my speed has decreased a little. But, I make better decisions which saves orders more time. And, my skills are still solidly top 15-20%. I know most modern databases, Java, Scala, Python, JavaScript, Angular, React ... the list goes on. I only claim to be an expert in things I’m actually an expert in. To be fair, I do try to interview at interesting companies. So, that could be the pr…
Maybe people are worried you'll rock the boat with all those technologies you list. If the group has settled on using React, the last thing they want is someone constantly trying to convert them to Angular. Another possibility is you don't know those things as well as you think. When you say React do you mean React v.16? Does that include webpack, and if so, which version? If you're claiming to be an expert on all th…
> If the group has settled on using React, the last thing they want is someone constantly trying to convert them to Angular.
Older developers have seen enough technology fads come and go that they are much less likely to do this than a young, excitable one.
Re: Facebook Tools Are Used to Screen Out Older Job Seekers, Lawsuit Claims
#144Data-driven algorithms are discriminating based upon undesirable/illegal vectors; they are utterly amoral in optimizing their solutions. Even if the algorithm does not have access to the "Age" field, then there are plenty of proxies, like what reunion tour you liked. And the same goes for race, gender, sexual identification, religion, etc.
To solve this we either need the training data to have no illegal/undesired discrimination, or we make the system moral. I think the first is impossible, and the second is what we will do sooner or later.
Re: Facebook Tools Are Used to Screen Out Older Job Seekers, Lawsuit Claims
#145Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Honestly I don't get the obsession with recent grads. They will work more hours for less money. This is nothing new. My first job out of university in the early 1990s was for one of the "big" consulting firms. 50-60 hour work weeks were the norm. I made decent money (they paid overtime) especially for a first job, but I wouldn't do it at my age now with a family and kids.
Why is there a belief in this industry that working more hours == productivity? Arguably a more experienced developer could do the same work (if not better) in less hours. The right to not work 12 hours a Day shouldnt be something that is earned with age. If a team is consistently required to put in unreasonably long hours it’s either due to being understaffed or poor planning. Both are a recipe for disaster...
Well in the case of consulting it's more billable hours, thus more profit. The clients should be the ones asking "why do you need 20 developers working 60 hours a week on this inventory system" but they seemed to accept it as normal.
Re: Facebook Tools Are Used to Screen Out Older Job Seekers, Lawsuit Claims
#146Earlier quoted context omitted.
"Overqualified" has got to be the softest insult you can throw at a job seeker. It ostensibly says "we aren't secure in ourselves as employers to challenge our workers to produce great work, nor do we value original thought, so we'd rather hire drones that don't rattle the cage".
As someone that's hired a lot of people being overqualified is an actual reason not to want to hire an applicant. The reason is because they are not likely to last in the position. Not every company is some high growth engineering phenomenon. Sometimes you need someone to fill a specific role and you'd like them to be stable in that role.
In which case the applicant's employment history would be a lot more relevant. As in, have they been job-hopping, historically "not-lasting" at a job? or do they commit to their work and see it through. If you're offering a decent job and pay fairly, there's no reason to assume an applicant will simply "not last" only because of them being "over-qualified", whatever that means.
Re: Facebook Tools Are Used to Screen Out Older Job Seekers, Lawsuit Claims
#147Earlier quoted context omitted.
Startups aren’t going to change. The goal should be to marginalize their influence and effects on tech hiring. They are simply not important enough (by hiring volume) to carry the weight they currently do.
>They are simply not important enough (by hiring volume) to carry the weight they currently do. Unforunately, they are. A large proportion of the tech industry is startups / small businesses. I'd be surprised if Google/Facebook/Amazon/Apple/Microsoft make up even 10% of tech workers.
Citation please. Startups are minuscule compared to total tech jobs.
My current employer employees more tech workers than all YC startups combined, for example.
Re: Facebook Tools Are Used to Screen Out Older Job Seekers, Lawsuit Claims
#148Earlier quoted context omitted.
"Overqualified" has got to be the softest insult you can throw at a job seeker. It ostensibly says "we aren't secure in ourselves as employers to challenge our workers to produce great work, nor do we value original thought, so we'd rather hire drones that don't rattle the cage".
It may also mean that the employer has reasons to believe that the candidate is well aware of his/her skill level and will treat this job as temporary while looking for a higher position in another company.
All jobs are temporary, some more so than others.
Re: Facebook Tools Are Used to Screen Out Older Job Seekers, Lawsuit Claims
#149Earlier quoted context omitted.
Become an expert on the Cobol/PL1 of 2050, maybe?
> Cobol/PL1 of 2050 It's already here and it's called Java :)
In Austria, not even Javascript can beat Java (33% more job openings!). At least in Europe, Java will continue to rule supreme in the foreseeable future. I am currently part of a big project involving >300 people that will lead to 50 - 100 Spring Boot microservices that will run at least 10 years...
Re: Facebook Tools Are Used to Screen Out Older Job Seekers, Lawsuit Claims
#150Earlier quoted context omitted.
What are some common exit strategies in the industry? It seems like early startup options for employees are more of a lottery ticket than retirement plan.
You move one of the larger, more conservative companies that employ probably 90% of the world's tech workforce. You do the non-sexy ETL work, or line-of-business app development, that 90% of the world's developer workforce does. Web forums are RIDICULOUSLY overweighted toward students and younger startup employees. Partially because older workers have jobs and families and better stuff to do than play online. Partial…
Amen.