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Facebook Tools Are Used to Screen Out Older Job Seekers, Lawsuit Claims

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Re: Facebook Tools Are Used to Screen Out Older Job Seekers, Lawsuit Claims

#61

Post by seattle_spring »

teaspoons wrote: post #53
seattle_spring wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not saying you're this person, but a lot of people making this claim are also the people that seem argue with literally everything. They always claim they know better. "Oh your team of 8 has spent the last 12 months building this complex webapp with React? Gosh darn millennial hipsters and their FRAMEWORKS. I could have built it with jQuery in a week, and still had a nickel leftover for the trolley!" Yes I've exa…

You _are_ saying they're that person Yes older coders have weathered more fashions and succumbed to many themselves so in some respects they do know better

I'm really not. I'm just saying I've experienced a non-trivial amount of "that person", and it's a possibility worth considering if they want to remain hireable.

Re: Facebook Tools Are Used to Screen Out Older Job Seekers, Lawsuit Claims

#62

Post by mlthoughts2018 »

notacoward wrote: post #52

As a 53-year-old Facebook employee, I find the part about Facebook doing this for their own hiring a bit odd. To the extent that anyone has ever reacted to my age with anything other than mild surprise, people generally seem quite glad to see something besides another fresh 20-something face and to hear the voice of long experience. Then again, I didn't come in via a Facebook ad. Maybe companies use different methods…

I don't know. I was recommended to a specific domain-specialized role in Facebook by someone with a long tenure inside the company, and after the recommendation, I was just auto-routed into the standard, crappy candidate pipeline like everyone else, told I'd have to do whatever 6-month rotation bootcamp, asked why I didn't have a bunch of Javascript experience.

It certainly felt like they make an effort to pedantically screen everyone through such a process exactly to enforce various uniformity and policy standards.

I am not claiming that I specifically experienced ageism, although it is possible. But I definitely experienced some type of "junior dev, infinitely flexible, doesn't know his own market compensation worth, etc." filters, which in many cases are going to systematically filter out experienced professionals.

Re: Facebook Tools Are Used to Screen Out Older Job Seekers, Lawsuit Claims

#63

Post by master_yoda_1 »

notacoward wrote: post #52

As a 53-year-old Facebook employee, I find the part about Facebook doing this for their own hiring a bit odd. To the extent that anyone has ever reacted to my age with anything other than mild surprise, people generally seem quite glad to see something besides another fresh 20-something face and to hear the voice of long experience. Then again, I didn't come in via a Facebook ad. Maybe companies use different methods…

The facebook CEO is very famous for his quote by the way. https://www.cnet.com/news/say-what-young-people-are-just-sma...

Re: Facebook Tools Are Used to Screen Out Older Job Seekers, Lawsuit Claims

#64

Post by Mc_Big_G »

yathroaway wrote: post #35
p0nce wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Readers: what's your exit strategy? You probably need one.

Management

No one will even talk to you about a management position, without already having been a manager, no matter how much experience you have as a developer. The only path to management is to acquire it from the inside.

Re: Facebook Tools Are Used to Screen Out Older Job Seekers, Lawsuit Claims

#65

Post by agotterer »

ashelmire wrote: post #49
p0nce wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Readers: what's your exit strategy? You probably need one.

Age discrimination in tech is dumb. I've got a dev 30 years my senior sitting across from me and I guarantee he will code circles around 90% of the devs on HN, and 100% of the new grads getting jobs at big tech (and will until he dies). He's got a huge amount of knowledge in programming, our domain (NLP), he's fast, thorough, and thoughtful. Honestly I don't get the obsession with recent grads. They are basically use…

Some of reasons I’ve seen for ageism in startups are cost and “not a culture fit”. Cost I understand, but I believe more experienced people end up being cheaper in the long run when you account for speed, correctness, and long term maintainability. The culture piece stems from the “would I get a beer with this person” and will he/she work as “hard” as a younger candidate with less responsibilities.

Startups need to start realizing that it’s okay to have diversity and different cultural groups. By putting yourself in the stereotypical startup culture box you greatly limit your ability to hire and create diversity. If everyone thinks and acts the same you miss out on valuable perspectives and ideas.

Re: Facebook Tools Are Used to Screen Out Older Job Seekers, Lawsuit Claims

#66

Post by koolba »

If I advertise a job in a church newsletter am I screening out Jews, Muslims, and atheists?

How about a job in a predominantly black newspaper, am I screening out Latino candidates?

How about a job ad in a predominantly lesbian one, is that screening straight men?

What about one in a youth newsletter or Facebook demographically targeted ad, is that screening out old people?

I’d argue intent is what matters. If the goal is to reach a demographic you think will have fine candidates then proceed. If it’s purely exclusionary to circumvent labor laws because you’re avoiding someone else then it’s a problem.

The analysis for this should not be at the inbound funnel, but instead at the net result based on the received candidate pool. That’s where you can see whether an actual bias exists.

Re: Facebook Tools Are Used to Screen Out Older Job Seekers, Lawsuit Claims

#67

Post by toomuchtodo »

agotterer wrote: post #65
ashelmire wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Age discrimination in tech is dumb. I've got a dev 30 years my senior sitting across from me and I guarantee he will code circles around 90% of the devs on HN, and 100% of the new grads getting jobs at big tech (and will until he dies). He's got a huge amount of knowledge in programming, our domain (NLP), he's fast, thorough, and thoughtful. Honestly I don't get the obsession with recent grads. They are basically use…

Some of reasons I’ve seen for ageism in startups are cost and “not a culture fit”. Cost I understand, but I believe more experienced people end up being cheaper in the long run when you account for speed, correctness, and long term maintainability. The culture piece stems from the “would I get a beer with this person” and will he/she work as “hard” as a younger candidate with less responsibilities. Startups need to s…

Startups aren’t going to change. The goal should be to marginalize their influence and effects on tech hiring. They are simply not important enough (by hiring volume) to carry the weight they currently do.

Re: Facebook Tools Are Used to Screen Out Older Job Seekers, Lawsuit Claims

#68

Post by oblio »

Traubenfuchs wrote: post #22
p0nce wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Readers: what's your exit strategy? You probably need one.

Become an expert on the Cobol/PL1 of 2050, maybe?

> Cobol/PL1 of 2050

It's already here and it's called Java :)

Re: Facebook Tools Are Used to Screen Out Older Job Seekers, Lawsuit Claims

#69

Post by danShumway »

rdiddly wrote: post #29
brainwad wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Facebook doesn't collect explicit race information, it's inferred from user behaviour. You can choose to do the sorts of things on Facebook that black people do, then advertisers will think you are black. Just like you can choose to read Black Enterprise, and advertisers will think you are black.

Facebook explicitly collects your birth date though, doesn't it? (Question is both rhetorical and actual.)

And gives you explicit warnings not to lie about it. And limits the total number of times you can change it (so you'd better hope you lied when you signed up 5 or 10 years ago).

Facebook is not real big on the 'ol anonymity.

In practice they can't really stop you from lying, but just telling people not to lie and making the question sound serious can often be enough to stop the average person. I suspect most people put in their correct age.

Odds are also pretty good your friends are going to mention your age at some point while wishing you Happy Birthday. If Facebook's data collection is smart enough it could decide to trust them over you. I kind of doubt that it is smart enough to do that right now, but it probably wouldn't be the hardest thing in the world to do if people started commonly lying.

Re: Facebook Tools Are Used to Screen Out Older Job Seekers, Lawsuit Claims

#70

Post by agotterer »

ams6110 wrote: post #57
ashelmire wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Age discrimination in tech is dumb. I've got a dev 30 years my senior sitting across from me and I guarantee he will code circles around 90% of the devs on HN, and 100% of the new grads getting jobs at big tech (and will until he dies). He's got a huge amount of knowledge in programming, our domain (NLP), he's fast, thorough, and thoughtful. Honestly I don't get the obsession with recent grads. They are basically use…

> Honestly I don't get the obsession with recent grads. They will work more hours for less money. This is nothing new. My first job out of university in the early 1990s was for one of the "big" consulting firms. 50-60 hour work weeks were the norm. I made decent money (they paid overtime) especially for a first job, but I wouldn't do it at my age now with a family and kids.

Why is there a belief in this industry that working more hours == productivity? Arguably a more experienced developer could do the same work (if not better) in less hours. The right to not work 12 hours a Day shouldnt be something that is earned with age. If a team is consistently required to put in unreasonably long hours it’s either due to being understaffed or poor planning. Both are a recipe for disaster...
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