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Emacs 26.1 released

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Re: Emacs 26.1 released

#81

Post by dkns »

rdtsc wrote: post #39
mayankkaizen wrote: post #32

I am not a programmer but have been learning programming since last 2 years. Only yesterday, I installed emacs and spent half an hour on it. Even opened a tutorial to learn the basics. But I got irritated pretty soon and gave it up. Now I am thinking about people who use it like a pro. How the hell did they master this beast?

I was wondering that too. However it ended up having the best highlighting and indenting packages for the languages I was using. It was available on most platforms and most of all worked in an SSH session. I wouldn't try to learn everything at once would just learn: 1) How to quit 2) How to save a file 3) Basic navigation: up, down, left, right, end of line, beginning of line 4) How to cut a line, and how to paste a…

I tried giving Emacs a shot again recently because I now use windows at work and it's easier to get Emacs working on windows with all the features rather than trying to get vim/neovim with myriad of different outside plugins.

But I won't be switching simply because indentation in html/css/js files is off and apparently Emacs is bad at handling stuff like jsx and web stuff in general. Shame.

Re: Emacs 26.1 released

#82

Post by PurpleRamen »

gkya wrote: post #58
eatonphil wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are the improvements?

Here is the repo: https://bitbucket.org/mituharu/emacs-mac Skimming the readme, I see that it's almost entirely mac specific and mostly UX. I can't say they are completely useless but nothing really vital, except the features inherited from Carbon, which seem useful (I really like the concept of AppleScript, i.e. all programs responding to a single programming interface; I guess DBus is supposed to do sth. similar on…

Once there was an Desktop-Environment called KDE 3. It has this Interprocess-Communication called dcop. Around that time there were serious attempts made to reach a similar level like AppleScript. There even were plans to recreate the Wokflow(?)-App from MacOS. But then KDE4 came, DBUS replaced dcop and things became a complicated mess. Today DBUS is still used, but the spirit to externally automate your apps seems to mostly gone, and remaining abilitys are just a shadow of past promises.

Re: Emacs 26.1 released

#83

Post by Grue3 »

mayankkaizen wrote: post #32

I am not a programmer but have been learning programming since last 2 years. Only yesterday, I installed emacs and spent half an hour on it. Even opened a tutorial to learn the basics. But I got irritated pretty soon and gave it up. Now I am thinking about people who use it like a pro. How the hell did they master this beast?

My previous editor was notepad.exe. I just started using Emacs like a glorified Notepad and gradually figured out various features. The interactive help system is fantastic. C-h is your friend.

Re: Emacs 26.1 released

#84

Post by bmn__ »

PurpleRamen wrote: post #82
gkya wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here is the repo: https://bitbucket.org/mituharu/emacs-mac Skimming the readme, I see that it's almost entirely mac specific and mostly UX. I can't say they are completely useless but nothing really vital, except the features inherited from Carbon, which seem useful (I really like the concept of AppleScript, i.e. all programs responding to a single programming interface; I guess DBus is supposed to do sth. similar on…

Once there was an Desktop-Environment called KDE 3. It has this Interprocess-Communication called dcop. Around that time there were serious attempts made to reach a similar level like AppleScript. There even were plans to recreate the Wokflow(?)-App from MacOS. But then KDE4 came, DBUS replaced dcop and things became a complicated mess. Today DBUS is still used, but the spirit to externally automate your apps seems t…

> DBUS replaced dcop and things became a complicated mess

That's what happens when one makes compromise with Gnome people. It's too late to undo the damage, but we can learn a valuable lesson.

Re: Emacs 26.1 released

#85

Post by jordigh »

skissane wrote: post #72
jordigh wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That Emacs should not give an advantage to non-free operating systems. Now, because Emacs is free software, this doesn't prevent anyone such as Yamamoto to go and modify Emacs. Rms doesn't want his officially-sanctioned version to have Mac-only improvements, but he also defends the GPL which allows other people to do so. Rms isn't going to go and tell Yamamoto to take down his fork or anything (but he probably will t…

Couldn't one way out of the impasse be to enhance GNUstep to implement the macOS APIs/features which Yamamoto's fork uses? RMS doesn't want to add features only supported on proprietary platforms, but so long as one free software platform supports the same feature, that should answer RMS' objection.

Yes, this is more or less what rms wants to happen: that GNU gets the benefits of macOS. Then when both OSes can use those colourful emojis, he will accept the code into Emacs.

Re: Emacs 26.1 released

#86

Post by bmn__ »

reitanqild wrote: post #37
jlouis wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Steeep learning curve. Baby steps and don't give up. Make judgement after a month or two. Key point is you can program it to do what you prefer.

Also: not for everyone. I keep hearing people mentioning vim and emacs but I have a strong suspicion that if people spent the same time that they now spend learning and customizing vim and emacs learning a more modern IDE or advanced editor they'd be even more effective (except when they need to edit over ssh). Personally I use Visual Studio Code all day now. But I've also been happy with Netbeans, IntelliJ, eclipse…

> not for everyone

I feel that acutely.

Emacs is shit because despite its age, it does not even meet some sane minimum requirements for text editors. No localisation. No tabs. Window cannot be maximised prior to setting some obscure option. Menu items and buttons do not have underlined letters (i.e. accelerators). The vast majority of the options cannot be accessed through the menu or dialogues, instead you get a non-editable document with embedded buttons. Configuration is stored as code. Keys cannot be rebound from the menu.

The list could go on and on. I am thoroughly disappointed with the software, I wouldn't recommend to anyone expending patience on it.

Re: Emacs 26.1 released

#87

Post by henry_flower »

bmn__ wrote: post #86
reitanqild wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also: not for everyone. I keep hearing people mentioning vim and emacs but I have a strong suspicion that if people spent the same time that they now spend learning and customizing vim and emacs learning a more modern IDE or advanced editor they'd be even more effective (except when they need to edit over ssh). Personally I use Visual Studio Code all day now. But I've also been happy with Netbeans, IntelliJ, eclipse…

> not for everyone I feel that acutely. Emacs is shit because despite its age, it does not even meet some sane minimum requirements for text editors. No localisation. No tabs. Window cannot be maximised prior to setting some obscure option. Menu items and buttons do not have underlined letters (i.e. accelerators). The vast majority of the options cannot be accessed through the menu or dialogues, instead you get a non…

> Emacs is shit

pls don't say that :( there's exactly 0 ppl in the world who get paid for writing emacs. nobody is selling the editor as snake oil liniment that ought to remove all the grievances.

> No localisation

what do you mean? I can read/type in emacs in all 3 human lang I know/use daily.

> No tabs

true

although `M-x speedbar` can display the list of all open buffers in a vertical fashion

> Window cannot be maximised prior to setting some obscure option

I usually just press F11

> Menu items and buttons do not have underlined letters (i.e. accelerators)

true

> The vast majority of the options cannot be accessed through the menu

true

> or dialogues, instead you get a non-editable document with embedded buttons

why do you care if it's not a 'native' dlg? the mouse works. C-s works.

> Configuration is stored as code

hehehe

that's the whole point, m8!

> Keys cannot be rebound from the menu.

true

> The list could go on and on

I was hoping you'd mention the idiocy (I cannot find a more proper word) w/ buffers that have long lines. every time I open some 2MB xml file that was generated as 1 string, emacs suddenly becomes dog slow. this is what should be criticized, not the inability to rebound keys from the menu, imo.

Re: Emacs 26.1 released

#88

Post by andreareina »

mayankkaizen wrote: post #32

I am not a programmer but have been learning programming since last 2 years. Only yesterday, I installed emacs and spent half an hour on it. Even opened a tutorial to learn the basics. But I got irritated pretty soon and gave it up. Now I am thinking about people who use it like a pro. How the hell did they master this beast?

Patience and curiosity. I started using emacs because practically speaking it was the only game in town for writing common lisp. Spending so much time in it I began to learn how to get around. A good autocomplete engine and the fact that everything is namespaced means that a lot of functionality is easily discoverable. For example `M-x org- TAB TAB` shows me most of the interesting things I can do in org-mode, and if that's missing `C-h f org- TAB TAB` gives me every function that's defined in the org namespace. The documentation in the help viewer is generally complete, and jump-to-definition means that I can trivially see how something's being done.

Once the basics have been learned I think there's also an implicit assumption that the user hacks on emacs (or at least their init.el) to make the things they do easier. In a sense emacs is a make-your-own-IDE-toolkit -- pretty much everything about how it works can be changed if you like.

Re: Emacs 26.1 released

#89

Post by jefurii »

na85 wrote: post #63
jordigh wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That Emacs should not give an advantage to non-free operating systems. Now, because Emacs is free software, this doesn't prevent anyone such as Yamamoto to go and modify Emacs. Rms doesn't want his officially-sanctioned version to have Mac-only improvements, but he also defends the GPL which allows other people to do so. Rms isn't going to go and tell Yamamoto to take down his fork or anything (but he probably will t…

It might be abusive in the sense that it's nonfree but at least it's functional. Year of the Linux desktop jokes aside, I've just lately got sick of how broken Linux is on most laptops, even ThinkPads which are supposed to be the gold standard. My ThinkPad never had working suspend resume, for example, which is just basic stuff that Linux can't seem to get right. I'm not 24 and childfree any more. I don't have time t…

FWIW my wife and I have been running Debian on X-series Thinkpads for years with no problems except for having trouble some printers and with the occasional WiFi hotspot. Linux on the desktop Just Works in our experience.

I have to run Windows 10 on a system for work and I have to say the Linux install and setup experience is way nicer.

Re: Emacs 26.1 released

#90

Post by jefurii »

mayankkaizen wrote: post #32

I am not a programmer but have been learning programming since last 2 years. Only yesterday, I installed emacs and spent half an hour on it. Even opened a tutorial to learn the basics. But I got irritated pretty soon and gave it up. Now I am thinking about people who use it like a pro. How the hell did they master this beast?

A half-hour is not quite enough. :) I did the tutorial a couple times and found a reference card somewhere which I kept next to my computer for awhile. At first I used "Options > Use CUA Keys" so I could use existing muscle memory for basic things like copy/cut/paste. Then I just started using it for work and whenever I needed a text editor. I did this during a slow period at work so I wouldn't stress myself out. These days I'd probably start with one of the Emacs starter kits so there are nice and pretty defaults out of the box.
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