Macron Vowed to Make France a ‘Startup Nation.’ Is It Getting There? • Hacker News Board

Re: Macron Vowed to Make France a ‘Startup Nation.’ Is It Getting There?

#271

Post by baud147258 » Mon, May 28, 2018, 2:25 PM UTC

desu_ wrote: post #80

zenovision wrote: post #17

I doubt that France will be able to do this - they have many disadvantages comparing to USA: - high taxes - a lot of buerocracy - language burden to attract high qualified foreign employees - lower salaries - fragmented political system in the EU - much lower population in France comparing to USA and if you want to cover the entire EU, you have to support many different languages, currencies, etc...

As a French, it saddens me a bit to say that but you also missed one point: culture. My background includes some grad school experience at a top French university and then at a top US university. One big difference, which became even more obvious to me after I crossed the Atlantic, is that there is (almost) no hustle culture in France. Make fun of the stupid apps and the copycats but so many undergrads at my American…

Dunno at which you were or when, but where I was (ISEP in 2010-2015), I knew some students who were making serious money in their side jobs.

Re: Macron Vowed to Make France a ‘Startup Nation.’ Is It Getting There?

#272

Post by Symbiote » Mon, May 28, 2018, 2:28 PM UTC

kworker wrote: post #69

tradedash wrote: post #2

what does "startup nation" even mean?

Escape the Brexit. Many EU startup gone to London for some reason.

It's extremely easy to register a company in the UK, probably even easier than in the USA.

You just fill in this web form and pay £12: https://www.gov.uk/limited-company-formation/register-your-c...

Re: Macron Vowed to Make France a ‘Startup Nation.’ Is It Getting There?

#273

Post by schrijver » Mon, May 28, 2018, 2:29 PM UTC

grumpydba wrote: post #163

pwaai wrote: post #26

I actually looked into this with the local France Business startup organization. At the time, I was young (30, I am now 31) and started learning French with hopes of trying out a alternative to Anglo culture. But reality hits hard. I don't know how I would be able to adjust from living in a multicultural and laws where minorities are protected and enforced to a republic where it is not. Once you are in France, you ar…

This is just outrageous. The republic tries to protect everybody. If you expect us to drop our wit and our views on a proper lifestyle to be more inclusive, indeed please move along. Globally we still despise politically correct as a poison to our freedom. And most of us are fine with that. Little anectode here: in IT I've worked with people of all backgrounds and never saw any issue. Young people's pride can turn th…

Not outrageous at all; France really has specific problems dealing with multicultural society. The meritocratic republic is such a great idea, that people fail to see that it doesn’t always work out in practice. Fighting racism (for example racial profiling by the police) becomes a low priority, because there isn’t supposed to be any!

As a white foreigner working in France, it remains pretty benign, but quite visible--i.e. the boss laughing about your accent.

Re: Macron Vowed to Make France a ‘Startup Nation.’ Is It Getting There?

#274

Post by grumpydba » Mon, May 28, 2018, 2:41 PM UTC

schrijver wrote: post #273

grumpydba wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is just outrageous. The republic tries to protect everybody. If you expect us to drop our wit and our views on a proper lifestyle to be more inclusive, indeed please move along. Globally we still despise politically correct as a poison to our freedom. And most of us are fine with that. Little anectode here: in IT I've worked with people of all backgrounds and never saw any issue. Young people's pride can turn th…

Not outrageous at all; France really has specific problems dealing with multicultural society. The meritocratic republic is such a great idea, that people fail to see that it doesn’t always work out in practice. Fighting racism (for example racial profiling by the police) becomes a low priority, because there isn’t supposed to be any! As a white foreigner working in France, it remains pretty benign, but quite visible…

Racial profiling by police is indeed a non issue. Was born and raised in the suburbs, the most dangerous ones, and the profiling is done according to the attitude and the clothes, mainly. And thats the experience from my friends, with différent backgrounds. And boy do people in the suburbs have a bad attitude ! Quit providing excuses for criminals, it is a disservice To them. And overestimating the racial issue is the best way to isolate groups according to race, and in the end, create a hate able to cause civil wars

Re: Macron Vowed to Make France a ‘Startup Nation.’ Is It Getting There?

#275

Post by psergeant » Mon, May 28, 2018, 2:41 PM UTC

chimeracoder wrote: post #265

psergeant wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Meanwhile, in Delaware More worryingly for the French, it’s as easy as it is in Delaware in other nearby EU countries, and cross-border EU commerce is easier than cross-state commerce in the US

> and cross-border EU commerce is easier than cross-state commerce in the US I'm curious where you get this impression. Cross-border commerce is very lightly regulated in the US. For most industries, you literally have to put zero thought into the matter.

Don’t bank transfers take 3-4 days?

Re: Macron Vowed to Make France a ‘Startup Nation.’ Is It Getting There?

#276

Post by nopless » Mon, May 28, 2018, 2:44 PM UTC

tajen wrote: post #243

nopless wrote: post #104

I am curious about the real number of founders in this thread? It seems that most of the replies are focused on system criticism… and it's a completely false statement. Creating a startup in France is really easy to do if you do it well. Take an accountant and he will handle almost everything for you, from the creation to the run. Man Power is cheap compare to the USA. The only limitation seems to be the motivation……

Well, I’m a founder... French paperwork is incredibly stupid (beyond any necessary explanation), and, for no employee, I pay my accountant 2800€ to handle said paperwork. Second, tax deduction and grants... There are full companies whose job is to get grants for others. But if you don’t know the right law or the right grant, you pay the higher tax. I’ve lost at least 150.000€ with that on my first 8 years, although I…

Well 2,8k € per year (small startup) or per month (half time accountant) is nothing. How much will you pay in the USA?

Regarding fiscal stuff. I am afraid to say that this is the same in all countries... You better know the fiscal laws or request help from someone who knows. In any case, you are refering to 19k per year... It's not what we can call a strong showstopper!

Regarding 2 last points, it's clearly your point of view and I don't share it.

Re: Macron Vowed to Make France a ‘Startup Nation.’ Is It Getting There?

#277

Post by chimeracoder » Mon, May 28, 2018, 2:56 PM UTC

psergeant wrote: post #275

chimeracoder wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and cross-border EU commerce is easier than cross-state commerce in the US I'm curious where you get this impression. Cross-border commerce is very lightly regulated in the US. For most industries, you literally have to put zero thought into the matter.

Don’t bank transfers take 3-4 days?

> Don’t bank transfers take 3-4 days?

Uh, what? What does this have to do with interstate commerce? ACH doesn't operate on a state by state basis.

ACH can take a couple of days to clear (usually 2), but that's not really relevant, because most business isn't done through bank transfers. And for invoices that are due net 30 or 90, having a two day latency for the final transaction doesn't make a difference.

Interstate commerce in the US is generally trivial, mostly because the Constitution makes it very clear that states have next to no ability to regulate or prevent it. The only main exceptions are industries that are heavily regulated within a state (ie, if you want to set up a new health insurer in a state, most states require you to get a license from that state - which isn't really regulating interstate commerce, but having state-specific regulations you need to be aware of. This is uncommon).

For general businesses like we usually talk about on HN, there are very few barriers to interstate commerce in the US, especially compared to the EU.

Re: Macron Vowed to Make France a ‘Startup Nation.’ Is It Getting There?

#278

Post by Matticus_Rex » Mon, May 28, 2018, 3:38 PM UTC

mayniac wrote: post #248

Matticus_Rex wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not anti-union per se, but I am familiar with the economics literature, and the 40-hour work week, minimum wage, and lack of child labor are artifacts of economic development. People don't want their kids to have to work, so when societies become wealthy enough that they don't have to, they stop sending their kids to work, and around that time manage to also ban child labor (which has little effect at this point…

>the 40-hour work week, minimum wage, and lack of child labor are artifacts of economic development The economy hasn't stopped developing however. 80 hour work weeks at the factory have been replaced with 40 hour weeks with 20 hours of unpaid overtime. Child labour has been replaced with unpaid internships. Minimum wage often doesn't match increases in inflation and cost of living, not to mention regional changes in…

"Unpaid" internships are good -- they allow people who don't provide much value to learn and build their capital. People who want to work more than 40 hours should be allowed to work more than 40 hours, and should be allowed to make agreements with their employer that don't double their expense per hour at 40 hours. The minimum wage is just a price floor, and doesn't actually determine wages for more than an extremely small margin of workers, and raising it can increase unemployment among the most vulnerable populations.

Unions have the economic effect of boosting working-class wages and well-being for people in a particular group: high-skill working class people. They depress wages, increase unemployment, and reduce well-being for the most vulnerable groups, particularly minorities and those with low education. There is no broad positive effect on labor from unions; we know from the data that the benefits accrue to a certain type of worker, and it's nowhere near the lowest classes of worker. These gains are relative, and do not enlarge the pie.

(EDIT: Downvoting me doesn't make the economics literature less conclusive on this point, and there's no reason why we should expect it to be otherwise. The labor struggle is an intra-class struggle between the more-employable working-class subset and the less-employable, which is exactly what you'd predict looking at who makes up the groups.)

Re: Macron Vowed to Make France a ‘Startup Nation.’ Is It Getting There?

#279

Post by kakwa_ » Mon, May 28, 2018, 4:27 PM UTC

baud147258 wrote: post #266

kakwa_ wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

nope. 30k a year is the salary of a junior developer after employee taxes, and it's the low end of the spectrum. A company will at least pay 50 to 60k euros per year in total for a junior developer.

> A company will at least pay 50 to 60k euros per year in total for a junior developer. It depends on the company, as a junior I'm only getting 36k/year, before income taxes.

36K was my starting salary to when I started working about 8 years ago.

In the Paris area it's a standard salary for a junior developer fresh out of engineering school.

It can be higher if you are coming from a top school like Centrale or Supelec (~38/40k). It can also be higher if you work in banks/finance.

I'm not 100% sure, but 30K could be a medium salary for students fresh out of IUTs (2 years professional formation after high-school). But most of the time, the best students will continue for another 3 years in an engineering schools.

But keep in mind that 36k a year before YOUR income taxes ("salaire brut"). Before that, the employer has to pay his side of the taxes/social security ("charges patronales"). In the end, he has to pay around 4 for 5k per month if I recall correctly (sorry, I don't have the exact figures), which means roughly 50k to 60k a year. You can take a look at your payslips for the exact figures.

Re: Macron Vowed to Make France a ‘Startup Nation.’ Is It Getting There?

#280

Post by conradfr » Mon, May 28, 2018, 4:32 PM UTC

charlesdm wrote: post #33

chillidoor wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder how big the contractor market is in France. I mean, contractors are easy to hire and fire so it could be a good compromise (at least in the short term).

Not living in France, but Belgium (similar market to some extent): 99% of people don't want to work as a contract. They want a long term, "indefinite" employment contract.

That's because everything is structured around that, especially housing and banking, there is ZERO flexibility there.

My major fear living in Paris is losing my apartment while being between jobs or even still in the trial period.