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Macron Vowed to Make France a ‘Startup Nation.’ Is It Getting There?

nytimes.com

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Re: Macron Vowed to Make France a ‘Startup Nation.’ Is It Getting There?

#231

Post by systemtest »

noir_lord wrote: post #219
IMTDb wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is below France median salary. If you think you can get away with that, you either : - Have developers that are actually not that good - Have good developers that will realise that you are vastly underpaying them and will jump ship Salaries in France are lower than in the US, but if you think good developers are settling for remunerations below the median salary of the country they live in, you will get a wake u…

I'm in the UK (not France) and I make ~3050EUR a month (pre tax), I take home after tax ~2400EUR. I've been making money from selling code since 1996 and a full time developer over a decade. While my salary would be low in London (I'd be worth at least another 10-15K down there) in the North of England and particularly where I live that gives me an excellent standard of living, rent on a decent sized two bed is US Sa…

I am a contractor in the Netherlands and I believe it is the best possible place for a developer. We have a very high quality of life and a good balance in income and spending.

As a contractor you can earn near 20k per month pre-tax (around 7k per month post-tax) and live in a big home that costs you 1k per month in mortgage. That leaves you a lot of money for your spare time, fun activities and early retirement. I'm planning to retire at 35.

Re: Macron Vowed to Make France a ‘Startup Nation.’ Is It Getting There?

#232

Post by Keats »

kolp wrote: post #135

My experience as an anglophone, non-French entrepreneur living in France is that the regulations and business climate reflect the belief system of the population. There is a fairly widespread acceptance, even among well educated French people, in several of the following beliefs: - Companies are exploitative of their workforce and should be strongly regulated to protect workers; - Excess company profits are a sign of…

Since you live in France, wouldn't your business be considered French as well, assuming you don't have employees/associates in other countries? Since the corporate tax residency cares about where the activity is directed from.

Re: Macron Vowed to Make France a ‘Startup Nation.’ Is It Getting There?

#233

Post by Legogris »

enriquto wrote: post #211
Legogris wrote: post #86

Just sharing another experience: I am a technical manager at a small-size big data company. We opened a new office in Paris three months ago and our largest struggle by far is recruiting talent. Despite what other comments here are writing, the startup scene is booming. Station F[1] is huge. The four WeWorks are full and they are opening two more soon. Global companies like Microsoft, Google, Facebook and Naver are g…

> there is simply not enough supply of senior engineers in France to meet the demand. This argument is ridiculous, the problem is that you are not willing to pay enough. (I am working in Paris)

I'm curious: What is "enough" for someone with eq of an MSc in CS and a couple of years work experience with big data and distributed systems? I realize Glassdoor and similar sites aren't the best source of information but 60K EUR per year seems to be "normal" pay for such a profile and offering above that hasn't helped us.

We're having trouble even finding relevant people to open up the conversation with. I am interviewing pretty much daily and I can count the number of candidates that we have even been talking salary with on my fingers. I bet it's a different story with web or app devs, though.

Re: Macron Vowed to Make France a ‘Startup Nation.’ Is It Getting There?

#234

Post by oelmekki »

oelmekki wrote: post #194
Uberphallus wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a developer in France, and to compare to OP of this thread: I got fired because I created a company without telling my company. So I have both views in this matter. I got fired because there was a clause of "non-concurrence", but the market focus was different, geographic focus was different, all different except for doing tech. I brought it to court, it's ongoing. Why did they do it? Because they were downsizing…

Sorry to hear about your abusive firing, wish you success. > all startups I've seen quickly moved to London or Berlin in the moment they got VC funding Are you sure this was related to the cost of employees? As pointed in the article, London is the historical tech hub in europe, so moving to London after funding can have many reasons. You're right though, having employees is really expansive. I'm afraid it's not just…

Actually, I double checked (can't edit anymore), the total cost is the double of net salary, not brut salary. Employer taxes are 43% of the brut salary.

Bottom line : a good dev salary of €45k costs about €65k, before any tax reduction.

Re: Macron Vowed to Make France a ‘Startup Nation.’ Is It Getting There?

#235

Post by karambahh »

IMTDb wrote: post #201
systemtest wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The best thing is that you can get away with paying a good software developer only €2500 per month. You can get four French developers for the price of one American.

This is below France median salary. If you think you can get away with that, you either : - Have developers that are actually not that good - Have good developers that will realise that you are vastly underpaying them and will jump ship Salaries in France are lower than in the US, but if you think good developers are settling for remunerations below the median salary of the country they live in, you will get a wake u…

Median income is 1772€ per month.[1]

According to [2], 2500€ is top 85%, way higher than median!

(Numbers from 2013 and sources in french but I guess it is understandable for everyone. I expect salaries to have slightly increased in the last 5 years but not moving by +40%) [1]https://www.insee.fr/fr/statistiques/1370897

[2]https://www.alternatives-economiques.fr/salaire-mensuel-net-...

Re: Macron Vowed to Make France a ‘Startup Nation.’ Is It Getting There?

#236

Post by wodenokoto »

nikanj wrote: post #142
woah wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds like you have to spend a lot of time proving that what you are doing qualifies for these bonuses. Seems mostly like a haven for those who have the connections and know-how to get through the approval process.

In Scandinavia, there's a thriving cottage industry of "government grant consultants". They'll fix up all the paperwork for these bonuses, for a low % success fee. No bonus, no fee. I'd be very surprised if France didn't have the same. Writing the applications is really easy, when you have already written a few dozen and have the templates ready.

Never heard of that, what keywords should I search for, if I want to get in contact with someone who can assess if my company is eligible for a government grant and help me write one?

Re: Macron Vowed to Make France a ‘Startup Nation.’ Is It Getting There?

#237

Post by tajen »

jjcm wrote: post #91

I'm seeing a lot of arguments in this thread against starting a business in France, so my question is this: outside of the US where would you start something?

I have found that paperwork is very simple in Australia and UK. On the other hand, Mike Cannon-Brookes complains about something regarding starting in Australia, so I guess we should get his input to understand from what size it starts to become painful to be an Australian startup.

Re: Macron Vowed to Make France a ‘Startup Nation.’ Is It Getting There?

#238

Post by llcoolv »

adventured wrote: post #182
erikb wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny how Americans get so shocked about it, while it is quite clear to the rest of the world. Honestly when I was visiting the US the first time, I was shocked how Second World everything was. Most people live in poor areas (of course most well off Americans don't travel to these part of towns so they don't see it). Many non-chain shops are struggling. Food prices are ridiculously high in comparison to the not that…

That's false. France has a higher cost of living and higher food prices [1], with a considerably lower overall median and full-time median income level, versus the US. US GDP per capita is also currently 50% higher than France. France has an unemployment rate ~120% higher than in the US. US wage growth has been roughly 8x to 10x that of France over the last 20 years (France only averaged 0.5% annual wage growth over…

If you wonder why your comment got downvoted, let me come with a quick answer.

"The level of discourse you're pursuing isn't tolerated on HN. It should come as no surprise to you that no one is engaging with you- that is, of course unless you're being serious...in which case I feel dreadfully sorry for you."

:D :D :D

But don't worry. This weekend I will start a HN-Exiles invite only alternative and there would be only creators and no "priests". It is obvious that coexistence is no longer an option.

Re: Macron Vowed to Make France a ‘Startup Nation.’ Is It Getting There?

#239

Post by rhodysurf »

woah wrote: post #100
pilooch wrote: post #41

I run a machine learning company in France. Call it a startup or not, doesn't matter. Most of what I read in the comments here is not exactly true nor relies on statistics (sound like my story is...). For companies acting within the science or innovative space, France is a haven. CIR is a tax return that covers 30% of R&D personnel, JEI is a status that halves the taxes on personnel for 8 years, and nullifies gov tax…

It sounds like you have to spend a lot of time proving that what you are doing qualifies for these bonuses. Seems mostly like a haven for those who have the connections and know-how to get through the approval process.

The same thing happens in the US. Management at my company spends time maximizing deals with government to get bonuses and tax breaks etc. I would be shocked if this isn’t the norm

Re: Macron Vowed to Make France a ‘Startup Nation.’ Is It Getting There?

#240

Post by JPLeRouzic »

perl4ever wrote: post #159
nikanj wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The poor in France still have access to education, healthcare, etc. These rates are not comparable.

Are you denying the existence of public education, Medicaid, etc. in the US?

In French media (newspaper, TV), it is usual to state there is no medicaid, nor medicare in US ("pas de sécurité sociale, pas de retraite").

I guess it is a way to make people to not complain, because...

* The widely praised "sécurité sociale" does not reimburse much and nearly nothing for common health problems and not everybody has acces to it. The CMU was voted in France only in 1999 when Medicare exists since 1965.

* Every employee pay for a "mutuelle" (it is mandatory by law!) even if employees pay already high taxes for the "sécurité sociale".

* As for the "retraite" (medicare) most young people will get only half of what people like me receives, because of a convergent string of laws that were initiated 25 years ago.

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