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Bitcoin backlash as ‘miners’ stress power grids in Central Washington

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Re: Bitcoin backlash as ‘miners’ stress power grids in Central Washington

#191

Post by andirk »

acdha wrote: post #166
ryanlol wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get lots of bitcoin payments. >10 years into Bitcoin there's still no reason for someone to buy in other than speculation This is simply completely wrong, perhaps you should research the subject a little bit more.

Perhaps you could list a legal reason — not the marketing pitch we've all seen for the last decade but something where it makes financial sense to favor it? I’m not saying it can’t be used but just that there aren’t many reasons other than speculation or an ideological stance. If I was, say, the corner coffee shop what would balance out the extra fees, delays, and lack of fraud protection?

Shops near borders often take the neighboring country's currency because it is convenient for travelers. If bitcoin was accepted more places, then those same travelers wouldn't have to worry about currency conversion. Sounds useful to me.

Re: Bitcoin backlash as ‘miners’ stress power grids in Central Washington

#192

Post by beagle3 »

bradleyjg wrote: post #188
beagle3 wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bitcoin, at this point in time (and for the last two years or so, though not really for the preceding eight) is digital gold. It's a version of gold that, with proper preparation, can be carried inside your head when you move from place to place, or transferred by voice or text message. Most people in the west have about the same use for gold[0] and bitcoin - speculation, gamble, "investment". However, people of Vene…

Everything you say about bitcoin is equally true of a bank account in pounds in London. There’s zero reason in principle that it is any harder or easier for an oppressive government to prevent capital outflows to bitcoin than to British bank accounts. At very best there’s a temporary advantage in bitcoin’s favor as oppressive governments take time to understand and lock down the newer avenues for evading their contro…

I started with "at this point in time". At this point in time, it is easy for a person not suspected of crime (or otherwise being on the wrong side of the government) to move their british pounds from their London account to e.g. one in New York or Switzerland, convert them to USD or CHF either before or after the transfer, and generally hedge against government by betting on other things.

At this point in time, the same is certainly not true for the people of Iran or Venezuela, where there are capital controls, and the only way to get a different currency is on the black market. Effectively, compared to the west, everyone there is "on the wrong side of the government".

> There’s zero reason in principle that it is any harder or easier for an oppressive government to prevent capital outflows to bitcoin than to British bank accounts.

In principle that's true, but that just makes bitcoin's raison d'etre more evident. At this point in time it does not seem to be needed, but it may become needed with less than a day's notice. This has happened to the people of Cyprus (a "western" European country). Even the US confiscated gold in the 1930's.

History does not repeat, but it rhymes. Bitcoin is a hedge; it's far from perfect, it has a lot of drawbacks, but at this point in time , it is more useful than gold for people who might have to flee.

Re: Bitcoin backlash as ‘miners’ stress power grids in Central Washington

#193

Post by UncleMeat »

josu wrote: post #106
mindfulplay wrote: post #33

It's hard to explain the levels of stupidity in this. - people trading 'coins' in the same way Pokemon / WWF kids trade cards. - thinking this is actually a long-term 'investment' strategy (well its idiots trading with each other ...) - to top it off, siphoning off electricity and giving a load of shitty excuses 'it could be like Seattle's. I don't know where to begin with this Bitcoin crap; it's gotten crazy that so…

This comment applies to any revolutionary technology. Let's substitute cryptocurrencies with "the internet" in 1999: - people trading 'stocks' in the same way Pokemon / WWF kids trade cards. - thinking this is actually a long-term 'investment' strategy (well its idiots trading with each other ...) - to top it off, siphoning off capital and giving a load of shitty excuses 'it could be like Detroit at the beginning of…

But people aren't telling me to invest in btc companies. They are telling me to invest in btc. That is fundamentally different.

Re: Bitcoin backlash as ‘miners’ stress power grids in Central Washington

#194

Post by acdha »

jMyles wrote: post #183
acdha wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps you could list a legal reason — not the marketing pitch we've all seen for the last decade but something where it makes financial sense to favor it? I’m not saying it can’t be used but just that there aren’t many reasons other than speculation or an ideological stance. If I was, say, the corner coffee shop what would balance out the extra fees, delays, and lack of fraud protection?

What's the obsession with needing a legal reason? Why do people reject the illegal but interesting uses? Doesn't the fact that bitcoin has managed to subvert drug prohibition for many people make clear that it is capable of interesting things?

Legality matters for two reasons: one is simply that the huge predictions about market valuations and transformative social effects require more volume than people buying drugs online.

The other reason it matters is that if something is primarily used for illegal activities that'll really hold back the whole system: most businesses aren't going to offer a payment option which makes them look shady, people are going to hesitate to use have the software installed, running an exchange will be even riskier, etc.

For Bitcoin in particular, there's also the practical risk that doing something illegal in a public ledger with non-repudiation guarantees is not generally a good call.

Re: Bitcoin backlash as ‘miners’ stress power grids in Central Washington

#195

Post by acdha »

andirk wrote: post #191
acdha wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps you could list a legal reason — not the marketing pitch we've all seen for the last decade but something where it makes financial sense to favor it? I’m not saying it can’t be used but just that there aren’t many reasons other than speculation or an ideological stance. If I was, say, the corner coffee shop what would balance out the extra fees, delays, and lack of fraud protection?

Shops near borders often take the neighboring country's currency because it is convenient for travelers. If bitcoin was accepted more places, then those same travelers wouldn't have to worry about currency conversion. Sounds useful to me.

Okay, so continue that thought to why would that business do that — is it faster, cheaper, etc.? How many transactions are there where the cost of currency conversion is greater than the cost of the Bitcoin transaction fees and conversion into the currency the receiver needs to make most purchases?

Re: Bitcoin backlash as ‘miners’ stress power grids in Central Washington

#196

Post by SlowRobotAhead »

mindfulplay wrote: post #33

It's hard to explain the levels of stupidity in this. - people trading 'coins' in the same way Pokemon / WWF kids trade cards. - thinking this is actually a long-term 'investment' strategy (well its idiots trading with each other ...) - to top it off, siphoning off electricity and giving a load of shitty excuses 'it could be like Seattle's. I don't know where to begin with this Bitcoin crap; it's gotten crazy that so…

I made the similarity the other day between to crypto-commodities (i refuse to call it coin or currency) and beanie babies...

It stuck pretty hard with me. The truth about bitcoin is like beaniebabies they have no value, and despite concensus other wise could at any time be ruined by the decisions of a dozen people or so. Anyone that still believes the “it’s decentralized!!” just because the database is - nonsense has a dose of reality coming.

Do I wish I would have gotten in at $5, yea, would I have sold at $20 not $20,000 almost certainly. But it’s over, it’s a fools game now.

Re: Bitcoin backlash as ‘miners’ stress power grids in Central Washington

#197

Post by SlowRobotAhead »

navbaker wrote: post #138
dvlsg wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find myself hoping it implodes sooner rather than later. Purely selfish on my part - but I would like to be able to buy a new graphics card some day. I'm already dreading the insane scramble when Nvidia announces their new cards (likely this summer).

I last built a gaming rig in 2012 and just this January decided it was time to upgrade. It took me a bit to figure out why the hell a mid-range graphics card was $700 minimum.

Good for Xbox and PlayStation which are screaming deals right now.

Re: Bitcoin backlash as ‘miners’ stress power grids in Central Washington

#198

Post by SlowRobotAhead »

pmorici wrote: post #156
paulpauper wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

bitcoin is already 65% off the highs. many other coins down 80% + more. I think that is pretty much close to imploded

That has happened like half a dozen times before in the history of Bitcoin. Not really a sign of demise.

How many times before did your mom ask you about it?

Precedent isn’t here.

But, if you are willing to say what happened in the yesterday will happen tomorrow, I assume you’ve taken a HELOC put on your house and invested in bitcoin - rift?

Re: Bitcoin backlash as ‘miners’ stress power grids in Central Washington

#199

Post by bradleyjg »

beagle3 wrote: post #192
bradleyjg wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything you say about bitcoin is equally true of a bank account in pounds in London. There’s zero reason in principle that it is any harder or easier for an oppressive government to prevent capital outflows to bitcoin than to British bank accounts. At very best there’s a temporary advantage in bitcoin’s favor as oppressive governments take time to understand and lock down the newer avenues for evading their contro…

I started with "at this point in time". At this point in time, it is easy for a person not suspected of crime (or otherwise being on the wrong side of the government) to move their british pounds from their London account to e.g. one in New York or Switzerland, convert them to USD or CHF either before or after the transfer, and generally hedge against government by betting on other things. At this point in time, the…

You seemed to have missed the point. There’s nothing to stop an oppressive government from preventing its people from buying bitcoin the same as they prevent them from buying pounds and wiring them to British banks.

The dark hints about how any government may become oppressive is a red herring. The issue isn’t that bitcoin isn’t needed because my government isn’t currently oppressive, it’s that bitcoin’s utility in the face of an oppressive government is wildly exaggerated.

You are attributing magic powers to bitcoins that they do not have. Black markets are not invulnerable to government crackdowns because they are digital. On the contrary, digital networks are in many ways easier to control centrally than distributed underground physical networks.

Re: Bitcoin backlash as ‘miners’ stress power grids in Central Washington

#200

Post by SlowRobotAhead »

I’ve seen THREE cities in my state (cheap hydro power) invest money and land into “tech jobs” around cypto-commodities...

Which is a roundabout way of saying my state is giving away money to people intentionally wasting power for personal gain under the false impression this is good for the economy.

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