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Pornography and the Butterfly Effect

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141–150 of 222 posts

Re: Pornography and the Butterfly Effect

#141
post #126
post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But this is an extreme and absurd postition from a small group. It's not reasonable that people attribute this to Peterson. I would agree that he could've seen this coming, and could have clarified what he means from the start, rather than after the controversy.

He is purposefully obtuse. This way, hard core incels can believe he means the more extreme options, medium believers believe he means wherever positions they fall on the spectrum, and he has plausible deniability for journalists.

> he has plausible deniability for journalists.

Do you have any evidence for this? Or is this just your imagination?

Re: Pornography and the Butterfly Effect

#142
post #125

>As for beneficial — well, as a good San Franciscan I am of course sex-positive, pro-sex-workers, and pro-porn as a concept … but it would be disingenuous to pretend that Ronson doesn’t show a lot of dubious-trending-negative emergent effects of essentially unlimited free pornography. That 5 negatives in a row? Impressive.

I only counted three; what five were you seeing. (Yes, blatantly tangential).

disingenuous, pretend, doesn’t, dubious, negative

If you count the "but" as negative then it's 6

Re: Pornography and the Butterfly Effect

#143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> At a surface level, it seems to demonstrate that sex -- and not just fruits of performances thereof -- is a transaction, and that the attributes that they bring to the marketplace (appearance, aesthetic, attitude, interests, personality, attainment) are unpopular among the potential pool. Amateur pornography exacerbates this, because it appears to suggest that sex, and the mood of sexual adventurousness required to…

One important caveat here to add. Just as it is not a failing black kid's problem ALONE that he does not have the opportunity to have a stable family and proper education, so is its society's burden to educate these men on etiquette AND provide them with a stable worldview that does not belittle them for not being like the demigods seen on tv (same as how we should not shame women for having body image issues, but ra…

I absolutely agree. I was responding to parent who was posing this elaborate hypothetical whereby the person who goes incel (or whatever) is somehow absolved of the responsibility for their situation.

I would argue that there are profound differences too between institutional racism and male sexual resentment.

Re: Pornography and the Butterfly Effect

#144
post #129
post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think porn, like opiates and other drugs, are hard to do "just in moderation". There is a powerful dopamine effect that pushes one to consume more and more. But even simply addressing the term moderate, what does that even mean? How much? What is the unintended consequence of getting sexual satisfaction from porn vs real life long term relationship? I would venture that unlimited availability of high quality sexual…

It's placebo.

Most likely, but potentially still quite useful.

Re: Pornography and the Butterfly Effect

#145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> At a surface level, it seems to demonstrate that sex -- and not just fruits of performances thereof -- is a transaction, and that the attributes that they bring to the marketplace (appearance, aesthetic, attitude, interests, personality, attainment) are unpopular among the potential pool. Amateur pornography exacerbates this, because it appears to suggest that sex, and the mood of sexual adventurousness required to…

> Is this more Jordan Peterson, “woe is men” shit? Acknowledging the existence of a problem affecting men? > ... then that is their problem, as individuals ... I agree, but the society needs to acknowledge that it actually IS a genuine problem for these men. We can then encourage the development and adoption of technological solutions, such as sexual VR and sexbots. It might not be the ideal solution for these men, b…

I actually agree with you, society does need to acknowledge that members are in trouble.

I don't think anything that has come out of the MRA/Petersonian fringe is helping though.

There certainly is problems with men/masculinity in society, it's both sad and tragic, as illustrated by the tragic suicide of Scott Hutchison a couple of weeks back. I'm convinced that all these people who think they're sticking up for men are only making things worse though.

The answer doesn't lie in blaming female empowerment.

Re: Pornography and the Butterfly Effect

#146
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jordan Peterson, whose being referenced here explained what he meant[0] and it doesn't seem unreasonable. It's uncharitable to jump to a conclusion here without going beyond our presuppositions. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yn60-8Ql_44

Peterson seems to have a knack for not explaining himself well and expecting people to just understand where he's coming from. He's also really bad at phrasing. He constantly seems to get into hot water for what he says, and then if you try to figure out what he says he actually said it's never for what we're told he says. I think he'd do much better if he wrote more books and had a really good editor .

This is the hallmark of cult (or any organized religion's) literature. Also how therapists operate. Be vague, and let your customers project the meanings onto your words that they most want to hear.

If you actually gave people answers, their quest for meaning would be complete and they wont come back next week. You lose engagement.

Re: Pornography and the Butterfly Effect

#147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One important caveat here to add. Just as it is not a failing black kid's problem ALONE that he does not have the opportunity to have a stable family and proper education, so is its society's burden to educate these men on etiquette AND provide them with a stable worldview that does not belittle them for not being like the demigods seen on tv (same as how we should not shame women for having body image issues, but ra…

I absolutely agree. I was responding to parent who was posing this elaborate hypothetical whereby the person who goes incel (or whatever) is somehow absolved of the responsibility for their situation. I would argue that there are profound differences too between institutional racism and male sexual resentment.

"I would argue that there are profound differences too between institutional racism and male sexual resentment."

Of course, institutional racism is several orders of magnitude more severe.

(Update: wow, I get downvoted for this. Nice!)

Re: Pornography and the Butterfly Effect

#148

The widespread availability of pornography probably does drive home several extra layers of resentment in someone whose personal track record with courting, dating, and sex has been unsatisfying. At a surface level, it seems to demonstrate that sex -- and not just fruits of performances thereof -- is a transaction, and that the attributes that they bring to the marketplace (appearance, aesthetic, attitude, interests,…

> At a surface level, it seems to demonstrate that sex -- and not just fruits of performances thereof -- is a transaction, and that the attributes that they bring to the marketplace (appearance, aesthetic, attitude, interests, personality, attainment) are unpopular among the potential pool. Amateur pornography exacerbates this, because it appears to suggest that sex, and the mood of sexual adventurousness required to…

Political and social institutions are systems that require system level solutions.

A call for individual impetus or responsibility to fix system issues isn't necessarily wrong, but it's usually futile.

Consider: some set of features that identify an individual, over time, begin to predict a worse or less ideal state. Is the cause and solution most likely to be a collective individual moral failure, requiring a collective individual improvement? It's possible. But is it likely?

Or perhaps a better question, is this proposed solution likely to improve the state of the world to one we all like? "Be better, it's not our responsibility to fix your issues." If this is repeated enough does the trend reverse? Or if it doesn't reverse, do we simply not care? If we don't think this will reverse the trend, and if we do care, then this seems like a poor strategy.

You don't have to care or not care about any individual, and you don't have to take any individuals belief or claim at face value. That's the difference between trying to divide up lines and attribute moral defect to society or individual, and trying to map out a complex system at understand solutions that aren't about assigning blame or worth, but rather improving society for all.

Still, an ability to have empathy for those who suffer, whether they are part of your side of the culture war or not, is (only in my opinion) a beautiful trait.

Re: Pornography and the Butterfly Effect

#149

The widespread availability of pornography probably does drive home several extra layers of resentment in someone whose personal track record with courting, dating, and sex has been unsatisfying. At a surface level, it seems to demonstrate that sex -- and not just fruits of performances thereof -- is a transaction, and that the attributes that they bring to the marketplace (appearance, aesthetic, attitude, interests,…

>declining to date someone because they're fat is now firmly seen as a bullying tactic

what world do you live on? Declining to date someone and bullying them are very obviously different things.

Re: Pornography and the Butterfly Effect

#150
post #77

The widespread availability of pornography probably does drive home several extra layers of resentment in someone whose personal track record with courting, dating, and sex has been unsatisfying. At a surface level, it seems to demonstrate that sex -- and not just fruits of performances thereof -- is a transaction, and that the attributes that they bring to the marketplace (appearance, aesthetic, attitude, interests,…

> Declining to date someone because they're fat is now firmly seen as a bullying tactic, but not dating someone because they're short is perfectly fine. As they say, "'No' is a complete sentence." Anyone can decline to date anyone for any reason you like. And it's probably best not to give reasons, especially if it's something intrinsic or hard to change. Many people lack a peer group capable of giving them effective…

No one dates a fatty. This is why fatties have to get rich to get women.
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