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GDPR: US news sites unavailable to EU users over data protection rules

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Re: GDPR: US news sites unavailable to EU users over data protection rules

#631

Post by methodover »

azernik wrote: post #623
methodover wrote: post #620

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for the citation; this is an interesting and useful discussion. The contract that Facebook has with its users is not merely to serve as their social media platform. The contract includes personalized advertising. Facebook, in the terms of their contract with you, give you X in exchange for Y. X is the social media platform. Y is personalized advertising. This is the contract. AFAICT from the GDPR, they don'…

From same source: "The processing must be necessary to deliver your side of the contract with this particular person." That is - these regulations refer to the performance of a contract by the service provider . If the data isn't necessary for creating the sandwich, you're not allowed to deny use of the service based on the user not giving you the data. GDPR was specifically written by smart lawyers and regulators to…

> Specifically, they're allowed to consent to give you that data, but that's not allowed to be a condition for the use of the service.

You seem to be trying to say that Recital 43 rules out certain types of items as being part of the terms of a contract between a person and a service provider. Namely, the term `you will be shown targeted ads` is an invalid term in a contract. (If this is a misunderstanding of your position, please let me know.)

But this is not what Recital 43 actually says. Recital 43 talks about the performance of a contract. It does not speak to the terms of a contract.

The phrase "performance of a contract" is, I believe, a specific thing in contract law: it refers only to the execution of some established contract.

If Recital 43 or some other part of the GDPR wanted to limit the terms of legal contracts to exclude targeted advertising, they could have done that. But they did not, AFAICT.

Re: GDPR: US news sites unavailable to EU users over data protection rules

#632

Post by azernik »

methodover wrote: post #631
azernik wrote: post #623

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From same source: "The processing must be necessary to deliver your side of the contract with this particular person." That is - these regulations refer to the performance of a contract by the service provider . If the data isn't necessary for creating the sandwich, you're not allowed to deny use of the service based on the user not giving you the data. GDPR was specifically written by smart lawyers and regulators to…

> Specifically, they're allowed to consent to give you that data, but that's not allowed to be a condition for the use of the service. You seem to be trying to say that Recital 43 rules out certain types of items as being part of the terms of a contract between a person and a service provider. Namely, the term `you will be shown targeted ads` is an invalid term in a contract. (If this is a misunderstanding of your po…

The activity they restrict isn't showing targeted ads; it's collecting the data necessary to show targeted ads. That is to say, you're not allowed to collect data that would show that the user is e.g. a 33-year-old African-American male living in Fremont, CA and with an interest in certain sports, which is necessary to show targeted ads. If you could show such ads without collecting that information, I'm sure GDPR drafters would be totally fine with it.

[EDIT: e.g. this article talks about "programmatic advertising using non-personal data": https://martechtoday.com/consent-unworkable-programmatic-ads...]

Recital 43 says you're not allowed to collect any data that isn't necessary for performance of a contract. In contract law, "performance" specifically refers to the actions one side is obligated to take by a contract; that is, the service provider is only allowed to collect information that is required in order to "perform" (that is discharge their obligations under) the contract. If the contract says the user's performance of the contract requires handing over data? Tough luck. The service provider isn't allowed to collect it.

Re: GDPR: US news sites unavailable to EU users over data protection rules

#633

Post by myrandomcomment »

nxc18 wrote: post #530
rasz wrote: post #527

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> https://eu.usatoday.com/ is fantastic, loads instantly, no clutter, smooth experience, I love it. I am willing to believe it to be someones idea of sarcasm, lets strip our website of all the "goodies", give viewers poorer experience and watch the cries!!1 Except its actually better, and I wouldnt be surprised if it vanishes really quickly once they realize it backfired by reminding users how fast and clean web once…

It force redirects me to www. on mobile for me :(

Safari on iPhone in private browsing seem to work here..

Re: GDPR: US news sites unavailable to EU users over data protection rules

#634

Post by zerostar07 »

beevai142 wrote: post #493
repolfx wrote: post #416

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you use the internet back then? Do you remember what online ads were like before AdSense? My god. They sucked so hard! AdSense was a revolution.

I have used an ad blocker for the last 10+ years. I don't know how Adsense has improved my internet experience, and I suspect it has had no effect.

adsense ads have not changed much since 10 years go. it had a huge effect compared to 20 years though.

Re: GDPR: US news sites unavailable to EU users over data protection rules

#635

Post by zerostar07 »

pilsetnieks wrote: post #466
repolfx wrote: post #416

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you use the internet back then? Do you remember what online ads were like before AdSense? My god. They sucked so hard! AdSense was a revolution.

It wasn't privacy invasions that made the ads better, it was Google making the process easier. Instead of dealing with shady smaller networks, or individual sites (which only businesses that extracted high value from online presence could afford, e.g. gambling,) any business could then easily and safely publish their ads widely. That is not going away, and advertising in the EU will still exist.

of course not, there will be more ads. EU developers are not going to just shut down their websites, and there arent any better european ad solutions.

Re: GDPR: US news sites unavailable to EU users over data protection rules

#636

Post by wmeredith »

sireat wrote: post #102
flohofwoe wrote: post #48

Alternatively there's this: https://eu.usatoday.com/ No ads, no tracking, no cookies, not even Javascript. Just plain HTML+CSS and JPEG images. The whole front page is around 650 KByte, and by far most of this is in the image files. As a result the page looks very clean and loads very fast. This is what all news web sites should look like, not just for EU readers (although I fear that this is just a temporary solutio…

That looks fantastic, I would actually read USA Today if this lean site sticks around. If they want to monetize, publishers should control their own generic ad inventory (like they used to in old pre internet days) and ask for opt-in if you want customization. Easy on paper but hard in reality.

How exactly would one expect this to stick around with no way to monetize it?

Re: GDPR: US news sites unavailable to EU users over data protection rules

#637

Post by mark_l_watson »

ryanwaggoner wrote: post #227

I hope we get a LOT more of this. If the EU wants to pass laws that say every company around the world (almost all of which have ZERO democratic representation in EU government) has to fully comply or face huge fines that will drive them out of business, let’s see how they feel when all those companies just shrug and turn their back on the market. I know the GDPR fans here will just say “good, we’re better off withou…

Hello Ryan (I like your business advice newsletter), honest question: In the USA we have FICA laws that can fine foreign banks, in foreign countries, not here, for most of a year’s income if they make a single error in reporting financial,records of US citizens. Most banks in foreign countries simply refuse US citizens as customers.

How ae laws like FICA OK but not GPDR?

Re: GDPR: US news sites unavailable to EU users over data protection rules

#638

Post by methodover »

azernik wrote: post #632
methodover wrote: post #631

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Specifically, they're allowed to consent to give you that data, but that's not allowed to be a condition for the use of the service. You seem to be trying to say that Recital 43 rules out certain types of items as being part of the terms of a contract between a person and a service provider. Namely, the term `you will be shown targeted ads` is an invalid term in a contract. (If this is a misunderstanding of your po…

The activity they restrict isn't showing targeted ads; it's collecting the data necessary to show targeted ads. That is to say, you're not allowed to collect data that would show that the user is e.g. a 33-year-old African-American male living in Fremont, CA and with an interest in certain sports, which is necessary to show targeted ads. If you could show such ads without collecting that information, I'm sure GDPR dr…

Okay, I think I finally understand your argument.

You’re saying that Recital 43’s citation of “performance of a contract” refers to merely the performance of the provider — the good or service handed off by the provider to the customer. (It’s the sandwich in our example from earlier.) It does NOT also include whatever good the user provides to the service provider as their side of the contract.

So if a service provider says “You need to give me data in order for me to serve you targeted ads, and this is payment for the free service,” the user could not “freely consent” to providing that data, because it is a condition that is not necessary to provide the free service.

Okay, now another question: If the data given by the sandwich eater to get his free sandwich isn’t “freely given consent,” does that matter? Consent was never the legal basis under which the data was handed over in the first place; it was contractual fulfillment, which is a valid legal basis for processing personal data.

What am I missing?

Edit: I do remember the citation you gave earlier from ICO saying that contractual obligation is not a legal basis in the case where it has nothing to do with the performance of services on the part of the provider. I reviewed their site again, looking for a citation for why this is, but they don’t say. I assume they’re pulling that from recital 43, but again — that would seem to me to be a misreading of 43. That only means that the user didn’t freely consent to give that data. But that doesn’t matter because their data is not being processed under the legal basis of consent.

Re: GDPR: US news sites unavailable to EU users over data protection rules

#639

Post by dazilcher »

mrtksn wrote: post #441
ryanwaggoner wrote: post #431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Burger shops IN the EU are a completely different thing. My primary argument is that the GDPR's attempt to regulate companies in other jurisdictions because EU citizens go INTO those jurisdictions and do business is a dangerous precedent. If there was an enforcement mechanism for all such laws, it implies that any business or individual anywhere in the world with a website should therefore have to comply with any law…

So do you argue that businesses that do business over the internet should be subject to the laws where the business is legally based? So, do you say that EU businesses should be able to operate in the USA but according to the EU laws and without any consideration to the US laws? Or is your arguments something else, something selfish like all online businesses should operate according to the US laws or something like…

> So do you argue that businesses that do business over the internet should be subject to the laws where the business is legally based?

Well, duh, businesses are subject to local laws! That is not an argument, but a fact. Don't take my word, ask your friendly lawyer.

What is your alternative? That online businesses are subject to the union of all the laws of all the countries whose citizens can reach them?! That's ridiculous. Do EU businesses follow Iranian regulations?

Re: GDPR: US news sites unavailable to EU users over data protection rules

#640

Post by j45 »

flohofwoe wrote: post #48

Alternatively there's this: https://eu.usatoday.com/ No ads, no tracking, no cookies, not even Javascript. Just plain HTML+CSS and JPEG images. The whole front page is around 650 KByte, and by far most of this is in the image files. As a result the page looks very clean and loads very fast. This is what all news web sites should look like, not just for EU readers (although I fear that this is just a temporary solutio…

The speed of this EU site is refreshing.. reminds you of using cable modem for the first time.
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