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There are real reasons for Linux to replace ifconfig, netstat, etc

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Re: There are real reasons for Linux to replace ifconfig, netstat, etc

#91

Post by brazzledazzle »

simias wrote: post #18

I'm trying hard to fight my old muscle memory to use ip instead of ifconfig on Linux. I have a few issues though: * "ip" is useless as a keyword if you're looking for help online. It's extremely frustrating and probably my main issue actually learning how to use the damn thing. * ifconfig's output is simply more readable IMO: https://svkt.org/~simias/up/20180525-113825_ip-vs-ifconfig.p... . It's pretty weird that a b…

I love how much shorter and terse the output is with iproute2. I reach for it a lot on my mac and get a bit sad when it’s not there.

Re: There are real reasons for Linux to replace ifconfig, netstat, etc

#92

Post by JdeBP »

moviuro wrote: post #87
maltalex wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consistency is great, but there’s a trade off between consistency and innovation. In a sense, what you’re describing is stagnation.

OpenBSD's ifconfig did not stagnate. It handles aliases, bridges, wifi, etc. No, the issue is that no one at GNU or Linux cares about correct, simple tools (2 APIs for networking in the kernel?! What happened to manpages?! WTF info?). And thanks to that it runs on anything. Pick your poison https://man.openbsd.org/ifconfig.8

net-tools is not a GNU software package, note.

* https://sourceforge.net/projects/net-tools/

* https://www.gnu.org/software/software.html

Re: There are real reasons for Linux to replace ifconfig, netstat, etc

#93

Post by segmondy »

simias wrote: post #18

I'm trying hard to fight my old muscle memory to use ip instead of ifconfig on Linux. I have a few issues though: * "ip" is useless as a keyword if you're looking for help online. It's extremely frustrating and probably my main issue actually learning how to use the damn thing. * ifconfig's output is simply more readable IMO: https://svkt.org/~simias/up/20180525-113825_ip-vs-ifconfig.p... . It's pretty weird that a b…

Yeah, that's if you even have "ip" Was using one of Redhat's base image the other day and there was no "ip" installed, we tried all the tricks in the book searching through /proc to find the ipv4 for a new interface, and we couldn't, we could easily grab the ipv6. Ended up writing some code to grab it using python. :-/

Re: There are real reasons for Linux to replace ifconfig, netstat, etc

#94

Post by brazzledazzle »

linuxguy2 wrote: post #82
klaasvakie wrote: post #47

I've never understood the purpose of IP aliases like the "secondary em0" the author is setting up with systemd.networkd. These aliases are practically useless, you cannot bind() to them without knowing the IP, you cannot use them in firewall rules, you cannot setup dhcp for them etc. What are people using them for? I'm not sure what the low level difference is between an alias like in the article, or a "eth0:1" type…

> What are people using them for? In my case, keepalived VRRP floating addresses.

Yep. It was kind of funny watching a couple graybeards trying to figure out how keepalived was assigning addresses and how to view them. It’s a rare treat when you can help someone like that with something they might normally help you with.

Re: There are real reasons for Linux to replace ifconfig, netstat, etc

#95

Post by xtrapolate »

sureaboutthis wrote: post #75
xtrapolate wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Old does not mean bad" It doesn't automatically mean "good" either. > "in its pursuit to be Windows" Would you please elaborate?

A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. The article speaks of old software but, instead of fixing what it has and being standards compliant, it chooses to break away and do its own thing along with the new bugs and other issues which will surely arise.

> "instead of fixing what it has and being standards compliant, it chooses to break away and do its own thing along with the new bugs and other issues which will surely arise."

Well, people are still free to maintain and improve those older tools and bring them up to par with newer standards, if they want to.

Others would argue it's time to start phasing out code and so-called "standards" we've had since the early 90s in spirit of refactoring various elements in the ecosystem. As with most such efforts - lots of code will be thrown away, some of it will be re-used and re-purposed. I'd argue that in the long run - it's probably a necessary intervention.

Re: There are real reasons for Linux to replace ifconfig, netstat, etc

#96

Post by segmondy »

blackhaz wrote: post #44

When I started learning Linux when it was, I think, 0.99, I appreciated that so many commands where cross-Unix. It was a Unix lookalike. I could watch how something is done on one Unix, type this stuff into my Linux terminal, and get an equivalent result in Linux, and this helped a lot and created a sense of community. Now I see that Linux tears the standards apart, there are more and more obstacles with porting comp…

Yup, you could say that again. I cut my teeth in Linux while in high school for the most path. First year of college, I go to the engineering labs to get a job, it's all SunOS/Solaris. It's like driving a car! There were very few commands that were different!

Now, Linux is slowly going rouge and changing everything in the supposedly name of "progress" I'm still salty as hell with the systemd rubbish. The problem is that all the cool toys are supported better on Linux and I don't feel like compiling from source for most things. :-(

Re: There are real reasons for Linux to replace ifconfig, netstat, etc

#97

Post by brazzledazzle »

poizan42 wrote: post #23
JdeBP wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. The Linux kernel has two APIs, and has had since before systemd even existed. ifconfig uses the ioctl() API, which presents the concept of alias IP addresses in one way. ip uses the netlink API, which presents the concept of multiple IP addresses per interface in a different way. M. Siebenmann did include this point. * https://sourceforge.net/p/net-tools/bugs/12/ * https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bu…

This begs the question of why the kernel doesn't allocate an alias for backwards compatibility when adding IP adresses through the netlink API.

I think they are fundamentally different things. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I think a netlink alias is just an additional address and an old-school alias is more like a virtual interface.

Re: There are real reasons for Linux to replace ifconfig, netstat, etc

#98

Post by segmondy »

erikb wrote: post #66
blackhaz wrote: post #44

When I started learning Linux when it was, I think, 0.99, I appreciated that so many commands where cross-Unix. It was a Unix lookalike. I could watch how something is done on one Unix, type this stuff into my Linux terminal, and get an equivalent result in Linux, and this helped a lot and created a sense of community. Now I see that Linux tears the standards apart, there are more and more obstacles with porting comp…

Not to say I would be a great fan of Linux, but I think at this point it's quite clear it's the huge winner of OSes. Nearly all servers run on it nowadays, I think all relevant smartphones (not sure though, correct me if that's wrong), many desktop/laptop computers and even Windows is integrating more and more with Linux. With such a dominance there is not much point in syncing changes of the standard with other OSes…

Yeah, the BSDs were the winner too at one point, so was Sun and even WindowsNT. Don't underestimate how fast it takes to fall from grace.

Re: There are real reasons for Linux to replace ifconfig, netstat, etc

#99

Post by freehunter »

SCHiM wrote: post #59

I've lost much muscle memory and skill with newer systems. When I was younger I had time for deep dives into configs/manuals/googles/mailthreads. These days my job assumes I know all the stuff and ins and outs, not having a good time re-learning everything I already know how to do... It's not new anymore and gives no joy for learning new things, no time to do it either. It sucks.

Yeah I don’t buy into the idea that because there were some under-the-hood changes that had to be made, that means the whole application has to be thrown away and a new interface re-written. I don’t believe for a second that these developers couldn’t have dropped in a new backend and mapped the same commands to it.

Putting a shinier coat of paint on the command line isn’t going to attract a wider audience, it’s just going to piss off the only people who actually use the command line regularly. The CLI is the last place you want “change for the sake of change”.

Re: There are real reasons for Linux to replace ifconfig, netstat, etc

#100

Post by floatboth »

klaasvakie wrote: post #47

I've never understood the purpose of IP aliases like the "secondary em0" the author is setting up with systemd.networkd. These aliases are practically useless, you cannot bind() to them without knowing the IP, you cannot use them in firewall rules, you cannot setup dhcp for them etc. What are people using them for? I'm not sure what the low level difference is between an alias like in the article, or a "eth0:1" type…

People don't seem to use them on Linux for containers, but on FreeBSD that was the way to set up IP addresses for jails. You just had tons of aliases on an interface and you gave these IPs to jails. Anything that binds to 0.0.0.0 inside a jail gets bound to the jail's IP.

Now you can use VNET/VIMAGE to give jails separate virtual network interfaces. If you want to. The option to use aliases is still there of course.

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