I'm trying hard to fight my old muscle memory to use ip instead of ifconfig on Linux. I have a few issues though: * "ip" is useless as a keyword if you're looking for help online. It's extremely frustrating and probably my main issue actually learning how to use the damn thing. * ifconfig's output is simply more readable IMO: https://svkt.org/~simias/up/20180525-113825_ip-vs-ifconfig.p... . It's pretty weird that a b…
There are real reasons for Linux to replace ifconfig, netstat, etc
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Re: There are real reasons for Linux to replace ifconfig, netstat, etc
#22I'm trying hard to fight my old muscle memory to use ip instead of ifconfig on Linux. I have a few issues though: * "ip" is useless as a keyword if you're looking for help online. It's extremely frustrating and probably my main issue actually learning how to use the damn thing. * ifconfig's output is simply more readable IMO: https://svkt.org/~simias/up/20180525-113825_ip-vs-ifconfig.p... . It's pretty weird that a b…
Most docs will mention iproute2. You can use that for googling.
Re: There are real reasons for Linux to replace ifconfig, netstat, etc
#23Isn't the described mismatch between "reality" and what ifconfig reports once again a case of systemd (networkd) not exposing IP aliases in the traditional way, and replacing established network concepts by it's own stuff? Meant as a genuine question rather than trolling (though I know I'd hate to bow to whatever systemd comes up with rather than just using ifconfig which has worked since the begin of times) eg. ther…
No. The Linux kernel has two APIs, and has had since before systemd even existed. ifconfig uses the ioctl() API, which presents the concept of alias IP addresses in one way. ip uses the netlink API, which presents the concept of multiple IP addresses per interface in a different way. M. Siebenmann did include this point. * https://sourceforge.net/p/net-tools/bugs/12/ * https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bu…
Re: There are real reasons for Linux to replace ifconfig, netstat, etc
#24Why did they have to make the output of `ss` so cumbersome? I often end up installing the legacy tooling just so I can have `netstat`
Re: There are real reasons for Linux to replace ifconfig, netstat, etc
#25What's all the fuzz about this "sudden" change? iproute2 is part of linux (kernel) since 1999 or so.
Re: There are real reasons for Linux to replace ifconfig, netstat, etc
#26What's all the fuzz about this "sudden" change? iproute2 is part of linux (kernel) since 1999 or so.
It promptly got filed under "ah, learn that one day", then after coming up enough times got relegated to "ugh, stop bothering me about it, I'll get to it eventually" and everyone has been un-motivated-ly unimpressed about it ever since. I think.
Re: There are real reasons for Linux to replace ifconfig, netstat, etc
#27I'm trying hard to fight my old muscle memory to use ip instead of ifconfig on Linux. I have a few issues though: * "ip" is useless as a keyword if you're looking for help online. It's extremely frustrating and probably my main issue actually learning how to use the damn thing. * ifconfig's output is simply more readable IMO: https://svkt.org/~simias/up/20180525-113825_ip-vs-ifconfig.p... . It's pretty weird that a b…
Yes, this is key, and why ip is so terrible for the way I currently work. No doubt I'll have to get used to it, like those stupid biosdevname interfaces.
90% of my machines don't have more than 1 IP per physical interface, the rest are aliases
ifconfig outputs clear whitespace, so picking out the specific details of
- interface name
- ip address
Is far easier. I do prefer /28 to 255.255.255.240 when specifying subnets, but it does make it far harder to scan what the IP is. I suspect the people writing the utilities are the ones who are able to automate everything, as they do the same job 1000 times, with IP in, IP out, and no concern about physical devices, so rarely use the tool to read data, certainly not as a human.
You've then got the "what's the default gateway" problem
route -n
shows it nice and easy
Kernel IP routing table
Destination Gateway Genmask Flags Metric Ref Use Iface
0.0.0.0 172.26.32.1 0.0.0.0 UG 0 0 0 eth0
172.26.32.0 0.0.0.0 255.255.240.0 U 0 0 0 eth0
ip route -n returns ip route -n
Command "-n" is unknown, try "ip route help".
Helpful, ip route help is no help at allIt's all good having tools to manage lots of ip namespaces etc, that's great in the subset of cases you need that functionality, but for those of us that manage physical machines with physical inputs/outputs, rather than datacenter scale devices, it's a right pain.
Re: There are real reasons for Linux to replace ifconfig, netstat, etc
#28Earlier quoted context omitted.
Learning how to read the help output is often enough I find the 'ip --help' is virtually incomprehensible, and the man page no better. There's no explanation about what the tool can do, only some machine-readable formatting of the syntax expected. This kind of documentation is useless IMO, it's actively hostile to new users.
The tool allows one to manipulate kernel objects more or less 1:1, so documentation and help of 'ip' and 'tc' is adequate enough if you know what those kernel objects are and how they behave, but it won't help if you don't know anything about linux networking or traffic shaping in the first place.
Re: There are real reasons for Linux to replace ifconfig, netstat, etc
#29I'm trying hard to fight my old muscle memory to use ip instead of ifconfig on Linux. I have a few issues though: * "ip" is useless as a keyword if you're looking for help online. It's extremely frustrating and probably my main issue actually learning how to use the damn thing. * ifconfig's output is simply more readable IMO: https://svkt.org/~simias/up/20180525-113825_ip-vs-ifconfig.p... . It's pretty weird that a b…
`ip` takes a --oneline arg to make it more parseable.
Re: There are real reasons for Linux to replace ifconfig, netstat, etc
#30Why did they have to make the output of `ss` so cumbersome? I often end up installing the legacy tooling just so I can have `netstat`