Amazon device recorded private conversation, sent it out to random contact • Hacker News Board

Re: Amazon device recorded private conversation, sent it out to random contact

#331

Post by squeaky-clean » Thu, May 24, 2018, 6:34 PM UTC

jadedhacker wrote: post #125

I feel creeped out by these home listening devices and I don't own one, but don't our phones already have this capability? You can turn "Ok Google" on on an android phone. I sometimes record audio, and the mic is incredibly good. Is there a substantial difference between our phones and these devices? EDIT: Just realized the substantial difference is that Google and Amazon own all of these things. They don't control a…

"Okay Google" and "Hey Siri" run locally on the device, but all other transcription is done "in the cloud". Try setting your phone on airplane mode and going "Hey Siri, What time is it?"

It will recognize the Hey Siri, but give an error for everything else. Pretty sure "Okay Google" will behave the same way. Also if you turn on battery save on iOS it disables "Hey Siri".

Re: Amazon device recorded private conversation, sent it out to random contact

#332

Post by zymhan » Thu, May 24, 2018, 6:34 PM UTC

sdenton4 wrote: post #329

zymhan wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think there is much of a difference. People took a while to understand butt-dialing, and not do it as much. It'll take a while for people to get used to voice assistants that trigger seemingly randomly.

AFAIK, pocket dials have mainly been reduced by improvements in phones, rather than changes in user behavior; if the camera just sees inside of a pocket, it's unlikely to be an intentional button press.

I mean way back in the day when people had candy-bar phones and had to remember to enable the keypad lock :D

Re: Amazon device recorded private conversation, sent it out to random contact

#333

Post by Animats » Thu, May 24, 2018, 6:35 PM UTC

nazz wrote: post #290

kinsomo wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have this idea of a system I would like to have in my house. It contains cameras in every room that are constantly watching where people are and relaying the coordinates to a central server. That server makes decisions on if lights should be on or if A/C should be running in that room. But I would never buy this system. I would have to make it myself. I am hopeful that open source software and hardware can produc…

Your solution is simple. However, it doesn't allow for as much modification as the original poster's idea. With his idea it could be modified in so many ways to add functionality because it wouldn't be limited by the technology. The solution you supplied will eventually be limited by the technology if the original poster wants to add other functions.

There may be a market for something between a standard one-bit low-rez motion sensor and a full color TV camera. Maybe a 16x16 pixel IR sensor with a fisheye lens and a puny CPU that reports an approximate number of people in the area, for HVAC and lighting control, and security.

Re: Amazon device recorded private conversation, sent it out to random contact

#334

Post by dpark » Thu, May 24, 2018, 6:35 PM UTC

millstone wrote: post #168

dpark wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which means the light is always on. The device must be listening or the wake word won't work.

Maybe the light could be tied to network activity? The light is on if the WiFi chip is powered.

You’re kidding I hope.

WiFi is always on. WiFi doesn’t disconnect just because you aren’t actively moving data. You’d be pretty annoyed if every time you wanted to send or receive data your device had to reconnect.

Re: Amazon device recorded private conversation, sent it out to random contact

#335

Post by JackCh » Thu, May 24, 2018, 6:35 PM UTC

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #275

carbocation wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Might be cool to add thermal sensors to that, so the lights don't shut off because you're not moving enough.

That's the main problem with motion activated office lights tbf, especially when you're doing software development for example - not enough motion to keep them on.

Eh, it encourages me to get up and have a stretch periodically.

Re: Amazon device recorded private conversation, sent it out to random contact

#336

Post by amenod » Thu, May 24, 2018, 6:35 PM UTC

manmal wrote: post #255

dalbasal wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On making, not buying... A lot of home automation stuff seems like something that would be fun to make, but not something I really want to have. I mean, the AC might be a good energy saver (a smarter thermostat) but that's not something I want , more like something that I would buy if it was cheap and practical enough. To some extent, this is a phenomenon of early technology. It feels full of potential, so you want t…

At my house, we have blinds installed on every window, and every evening I go around the house, pressing 12 switches (2 for every blind, because UX is obviously optional) so it's perfectly dark in the bedroom. In the morning, I go around the house and press those 12 switches again, to let the sunshine in. Now that's a task I would love to automate! Alas, remote controlling those blinds would be a major hassle since A…

If it bothers you enough, take a look at ZigBee switches. Not sure I understand how you operate the blinds (since the current switches are apparently not on powerlines?), but you could still make a centralized solution to control them over ZB. There's https://www.home-assistant.io/ if you don't want to program (much), and probably others. And you will smile every evening and every morning for the next few years, thinking of the time when you had to do it manually... not to mention, it's cool. :) You might need to invest something in these devices and controller though.

Re: Amazon device recorded private conversation, sent it out to random contact

#337

Post by edwhitesell » Thu, May 24, 2018, 6:36 PM UTC

tj-teej wrote: post #317

yason wrote: post #297

I am oversimplifying here but: * install device that is designed to listen to speech in the house * the device is connected to internet * the device is capable of contacting other internet peers/services/hosts * the device knows a bit about its owner's internet presence such as contacts * the device is equipped with simple conversational user interface based on fuzzy human speech-command detection These basically bou…

If you replace "fuzzy human speech-command detection" with "buttons which can accidentally be pressed" - how is this different from butt-dialing?

Most phone now have some kind of lock screen, which makes it pretty difficult to get to the butt dialing stage. Will speech command recognition get to that stage?

The main reason I won't have any of those products in my house is because of that. I'd much rather have a confirmation of some kind before the system takes action.

"...random talking..."

Assistant "I am recording"

Me: "Stop recording"

Re: Amazon device recorded private conversation, sent it out to random contact

#338

Post by toss1 » Thu, May 24, 2018, 6:36 PM UTC

cortesoft wrote: post #226

toss1 wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And this is where "software" diverges from "engineering". Bugs happen in architecture, aircraft, etc. too. the difference is that the actual engineers are paid to have a precautionary approach and spend significant resources to actively prevent bugs from making it into the final product. In contrast, software is often written to "ship first", be "agile", and "move fast and break things". Yet when it causes problems,…

> Features are not better than reliable security. Well, yes and no. Bugs, security, reliability, etc are all important things to consider, but they can't be the only focus. Security doesn't matter if the thing you are creating has no features; it would be the same as if it didn't exist at all. Instead, we must manage risk; the risk of bugs, the risk of security vulnerabilities, etc. Nothing we do is risk free. Even w…

I did not say >"security is always the most important thing". I did not suggest that anyone should develop such that >" the thing you are creating has no features". I certainly never suggested that no one get out of bed because they might slip in the bath. These are strawman arguments.

You do not need to lecture me about risk. I've had a career in international downhill ski racing, have won auto racing championships, and enjoyed lots of technical rock climbing, all of which require a high degree of risk assessment, both in extended preparation phases and at split-second time scales. I've also run risk analysis for UAV flight systems

I understand well the difference between smart-crazy and dumb-crazy, and where the pseudo-mathematical risk models like yours break down.

Your 'analysis' to "...measure risk by factoring the chance..." would have fit right in at the meetings where Ford decided to just go ahead with the design of the Pinto/Bobcat because the lawsuits would cost less than the fix -- they wound up killing dozens of people.

Your 'analysis' would have fit right in where the trading algorithms were being designed, which worked fantastically profitably, until they didn't and ended up crashing the global economy in 2007-8.

You cannot simply multiply the cost of the consequences by the expected probability and get an allocation of resources. That is what you do to see if the lottery jackpot is big enough for you to want to buy a $2 ticket this week.

You must instead 1) fully examine the system for potential critical failure points/modes and then 2) allocate WHATEVER resources are necessary to account for preventing those critical failures, then implement those remedies along with the features.

These preventative measures may involve installing redundant systems around the critical points, redesigning the points so they fail in a safe mode (e.g., fail to send the data vs sending it off, shut down vs, explode, etc.), adding check procedures around the potential critical failure, etc.

Note that NONE of these measures involve not implementing the feature. They involve 1) checking for critical failure modes, 2) allocating R&D to develop preventative & fail-safe measures, 3) implementing the measures, 4) testing, and 5) field monitoring.

This is what you do if you are serious about risk.

Re: Amazon device recorded private conversation, sent it out to random contact

#339

Post by squeaky-clean » Thu, May 24, 2018, 6:36 PM UTC

dpark wrote: post #47

rolha-capoeira wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assume they mean that the light should not be accessible to software, just wired so that "if camera is on, light is on"

Which means the light is always on. The device must be listening or the wake word won't work.

There are usually 2 stages, a local processor that can only detect the wake word, and then once that hears the wakeword it begins streaming data to the internet.

Re: Amazon device recorded private conversation, sent it out to random contact

#340

Post by modzu » Thu, May 24, 2018, 6:36 PM UTC

zymhan wrote: post #325

tj-teej wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you replace "fuzzy human speech-command detection" with "buttons which can accidentally be pressed" - how is this different from butt-dialing?

I don't think there is much of a difference. People took a while to understand butt-dialing, and not do it as much. It'll take a while for people to get used to voice assistants that trigger seemingly randomly.

when my phone is locked (which it always is in a pocket) it can't butt dial.

whats the analogous behaviour for alexa?

also remember these are shared devices in a home, not a personal device in your hand. could i shout into somebody's window, "hey alexa send my browsing history to bob@hotmail.com"!