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Amazon device recorded private conversation, sent it out to random contact

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Re: Amazon device recorded private conversation, sent it out to random contact

#321

Post by gerdesj »

dustinmoorenet wrote: post #140

I have this idea of a system I would like to have in my house. It contains cameras in every room that are constantly watching where people are and relaying the coordinates to a central server. That server makes decisions on if lights should be on or if A/C should be running in that room. But I would never buy this system. I would have to make it myself. I am hopeful that open source software and hardware can produce…

You might consider investigating say ESP8266 or ESP32, MicroPython, Raspberry Pi, OpenHAB, MQTT, OneWire and wave goodbye to your free time!

Re: Amazon device recorded private conversation, sent it out to random contact

#322

Post by mikeash »

fouric wrote: post #180
mikeash wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The baseband is a black box and has direct access to the microphone.

Oh, this is true - although the likelihood and ease of it being exploited as a listening device are much lower than that of a device explicitly designed to do so. Edit: Not to mention that the entire Alexa is a black box, too. Second Edit: Not trying to claim that you're an idiot, just provide some perspective.

I suspect that the capability is already there, to be turned on at the request of law enforcement.

Re: Amazon device recorded private conversation, sent it out to random contact

#323

Post by smsm42 »

cwkoss wrote: post #280
snarf21 wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get what you are saying but I would say that Amazon does NOT take privacy extremely seriously or this couldn't have happened. Let me be clear that I'm not saying they don't care at all or they are conspiring with the NSA. What I mean by the above is that the "call" skill is much different than the "weather" skill. All Alexa has to do is have a confirmation prompt in the "call" skill and this wouldn't have happened.…

> they are conspiring with the NSA There is absolutely no reason to believe they are not conspiring with the NSA. They have a huge deal with the CIA, plausible some of these funds are for surveillance capabilities. They would not (and likely would be legally prohibited from) disclosing any relationship they have. https://venturebeat.com/2014/03/18/snowden-slams-amazon-for-... https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/ar…

> There is absolutely no reason to believe they are not conspiring with the NSA.

Or, more likely, being made an offer they can not refuse by the NSA. And the rank-in-file engineers may not even know it's happening, all it takes is inserting some diverting code into the pipeline and calling it "QA monitoring" or something. Couple of people in the whole org would know that somebody from some IP connects and downloads these "QA" data periodically, all the rest would be completely ignorant and indignant at the thought. Don't see anything preventing this from happening at Amazon - or anywhere else.

Re: Amazon device recorded private conversation, sent it out to random contact

#324

Post by mikeash »

tambourine_man wrote: post #225
mikeash wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, but you used the word “tapped.” A smart speaker isn’t supposed to be tapping you any more than a phone is. In both cases, they have to be doing something more than they’re supposed to.

I disagree. To be listening at all times is the very definition of a tap, don’t you think? And people know this. It’s not like they are being misled. It’s a conscious exchange of privacy for convinence. It’s just that, in my mind, you are getting very little for what you’re giving.

In my mind, you’re giving almost nothing if you already have a cell phone.

I made a different choice, but I totally understand why someone would choose not to have a phone or smart speaker due to privacy concerns. What I don’t get is someone who has a phone but sees smart speakers as crazy.

Re: Amazon device recorded private conversation, sent it out to random contact

#325

Post by zymhan »

tj-teej wrote: post #317
yason wrote: post #297

I am oversimplifying here but: * install device that is designed to listen to speech in the house * the device is connected to internet * the device is capable of contacting other internet peers/services/hosts * the device knows a bit about its owner's internet presence such as contacts * the device is equipped with simple conversational user interface based on fuzzy human speech-command detection These basically bou…

If you replace "fuzzy human speech-command detection" with "buttons which can accidentally be pressed" - how is this different from butt-dialing?

I don't think there is much of a difference. People took a while to understand butt-dialing, and not do it as much. It'll take a while for people to get used to voice assistants that trigger seemingly randomly.

Re: Amazon device recorded private conversation, sent it out to random contact

#326

Post by mikeash »

kec wrote: post #216
mikeash wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt it. Recording audio is pretty cheap. Lots of smartphones can now do continuous “wake word” listening just like smart speakers while on battery power.

"Pretty cheap" is still likely an order of magnitude or more than actual standby, and using a small ring buffer to identify a pre-established wake word is similarly going to be cheap compared to actually streaming audio to disk. If you actually care, this would be pretty trivial to verify using an oscilloscope to observe the energy draw from the battery while different things are said around your device.

I’ve verified it accidentally by using an intelligent alarm with my phone unplugged. The battery drain for eight hours (which includes analysis that would be unnecessary for just recording) was a few percent.

Re: Amazon device recorded private conversation, sent it out to random contact

#327

Post by duxup »

yason wrote: post #297

I am oversimplifying here but: * install device that is designed to listen to speech in the house * the device is connected to internet * the device is capable of contacting other internet peers/services/hosts * the device knows a bit about its owner's internet presence such as contacts * the device is equipped with simple conversational user interface based on fuzzy human speech-command detection These basically bou…

I remember the first voice command stuff on google. Buddy of mine was trying it out and I couldn't help myself but shout:

"NEW TEXT MESSAGE TO JENNY! FUCK YOU! SEND!"

Fortunately the phone was too slow to take it all (even if it had Jenny would have found it amusing, she was a cube or two away). But yeah first thing I thought of was that if it's listening how easy is it for it to mistake intent or someone else or etc.

Humans talk funny, computers don't get it, they're gonna mistake commands all the time.

As it is I hate how I can't talk ABOUT "ok google" around my phone... because it always goes off.

Re: Amazon device recorded private conversation, sent it out to random contact

#328

Post by superkuh »

jonjojr wrote: post #313

"My husband and I would joke and say I'd bet these devices are listening to what we're saying," Think about this statement for a sec. Of course is listening to you. It has to listen to you because it needs to be able to respond to "Alexa". So yes, this is always listening. Now, once you come to terms with that, do you feel comfortable having a technology with access to the internet, location, habits, account, contact…

People make the same jokes about cell phones and location tracking. But it seems like with these invasions of privacy they're always unable to make the leap from joking about it to the reality itself.

Re: Amazon device recorded private conversation, sent it out to random contact

#329

Post by sdenton4 »

zymhan wrote: post #325
tj-teej wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you replace "fuzzy human speech-command detection" with "buttons which can accidentally be pressed" - how is this different from butt-dialing?

I don't think there is much of a difference. People took a while to understand butt-dialing, and not do it as much. It'll take a while for people to get used to voice assistants that trigger seemingly randomly.

AFAIK, pocket dials have mainly been reduced by improvements in phones, rather than changes in user behavior; if the camera just sees inside of a pocket, it's unlikely to be an intentional button press.

Re: Amazon device recorded private conversation, sent it out to random contact

#330

Post by kinsomo »

tree_of_item wrote: post #293
kinsomo wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One reason you might want a server is to have more expressive power than "if someone literally enters the room, turn on the lights". You might want to turn on the lights and run the AC a little before you predict people will arrive, for example. Maybe, but that seems like a lot of work for little gain. You probably don't actually have that much control over the AC in your rooms unless you have zoned heating and a l…

> Intent is a very important factor when answering the question "should the lights be one," I don't think you'll be able to predict that. For instance: if movement is detected in the bedroom at 2AM, should the lights come on? The answer is: a very strong maybe. You would be collecting data from many sources in order to predict intent. This is why you need a centralized server.

> You would be collecting data from many sources in order to predict intent. This is why you need a centralized server.

Please explain, exactly, what other sources you would collect data from and how the central server would process it to determine if I want the lights on in the middle of the night.

IMHO, determining intent in this scenario is impossible without...

1. a mind-reading sensor, or...

2. an explicit user signal, such as a button-press or command.

The only realistic option is a user signal, and most of those options obviate a lot of these prediction ideas.

I think there's a lot less practical value to having a "central server" controlling everything than you seem to assume.

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