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Winds 2.0: It’s Time to Revive RSS

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Re: Winds 2.0: It’s Time to Revive RSS

#281
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment broke the HN guidelines, so it was properly downvoted. This one too. Could you please (re-)read https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and post civilly and substantively, or not at all? We're hoping for something a bit better here.

Well yeah, ofcourse. I dont see where my inital post broke anything. It was esentially as meaningfull as OPs reply. Ofcourse, the point of "this app should run in a browser" is very valid. The reply, he can just code it himself is in my eyes a passive aggressive way of saying "no, i said your point is valid, but actually think it isn't and therefore ill ignore it anyway." Its obvioulsy, that a well developed web app…

The initial comment was already uncivil and unsubstantive.

I'm sure you could have made the point more thoughtfully, in which case it would both have been clearer and not damaged HN in the process.

Re: Winds 2.0: It’s Time to Revive RSS

#282
post #280

I pay a couple bucks every month for Feedbin and couldn't be happier: http://www.feedbin.com

Only a couple? How? I pay 5 / month :/

Judging by my billing history, it looks like I signed up the same day it was announced back in 2013. I must be grandfathered in. I'd happily pay $5/mo for Feedbin if the grandfathered plans were removed. In terms of cost per hour of use, it's probably the service I pay the least for.

Re: Winds 2.0: It’s Time to Revive RSS

#283
post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does RSS need "a standard way to serve ads"? Feed content can easily include ads.

So 'we' can block it. NLP for ads detection would be disastrous as a problem to tackle. And if users need to spend considerable effort to distinguish ads from actual content, the tech-platform will soon die due to angry mobs.

The comment to which I was replying claimed that it was necessary for publishers to adopt RSS. I'm pretty sure they were thinking that, if RSS had some kind of standard way to increase the probability of ads being seen, publishers would adopt it more widely (and that's probably true).

My point is that feed content can already include ads as regular text or images or whatever. Feed readers and aggregators complicate ad-tracking, but not ads themselves (like what newspapers and magazines have used for decades [or centuries]). Some of my favorite feeds are sites with plain ads and the advertisers seem to be targeting the site's audience instead of individuals. That seems to work well enough given that it's existed in its current form for several years now at least.

> And if users need to spend considerable effort to distinguish ads from actual content, the tech-platform will soon die due to angry mobs.

We're probably writing past each other. I think you're imagining a much more widespread adoption of RSS in which this would be a real problem. Or maybe I'm just weird. But I don't see the problem with, e.g. following a feed of someone's Twitter activity that includes an (obvious) ad every n feed items for some suitable value of n. And my imagined world wouldn't require any changes to RSS.

Re: Winds 2.0: It’s Time to Revive RSS

#285
post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't understand this sentence. All RSS client software is called aggregator I'm trying to distinguish between (1) people using software the directly downloads the RSS feed from my website to their device and (2) people who use services that download the RSS feed to a server which can then serve a cached copy of the posts to many users. If everyone used (2), then I would only have my RSS file downloaded as many t…

> So apparently many people are doing (1), and if my feed is short then they are limited in the blog history they can read to how long they've personally been subscribed (or less, if they need to clear their device and can't re-download my old posts). RSS is a means for people to follow new posts from you, in order to read new posts they are supposed to come to your blog and use your archives.

The whole point of this subthread is about reading archives offline, and how RSS can't manage this. From my first comment:

> it remains incredibly difficult to scrape a well-organized blog and turn it into something I can consume like RSS or a kindle book.

> Note that many/most WordPress RSS feeds aren't that useful because...

Re: Winds 2.0: It’s Time to Revive RSS

#286
post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Still, exceptionally low cost compared to running pretty much any website's massive CSS and JS files. My blog has both RSS and browser readers, but the bandwidth is dominated by the RSS feed. Since the RSS file has no images (just HTML pointing to the images), I think it's more likely that for my Wordpress blog the CSS/JS overhead is just not that much (as opposed to the alternative hypothesis that I have many many…

>the bandwidth is dominated by the RSS feed Exceptionally low cost per hit, as opposed to overall bandwidth. Overall bandwidth will probably fair off worse as you say due to the polling nature of RSS. I think in general RSS readers could do a better job of fetching heads and checking whether or not there is a change worth fetching, that would save a tonne of bandwidth. Also in general, I would be tempted to make an R…

>> the bandwidth is dominated by the RSS feed

> Exceptionally low cost per hit, as opposed to overall bandwidth.

I don't understand. I'm telling you that my RSS file literally dominates my bandwidth usage in GB.

> I think in general RSS readers could do a better job of fetching heads and checking whether or not there is a change worth fetching, that would save a tonne of bandwidth.

Yah! Agreed.

> It should just be a short `` and a link to the main article (which would still allow you to potentially monetize your content or gauge interest more accurately).

No, I want people to be able to read it offline. I'm not trying to monetize anything.

> Also, bandwidth is just one resource - potentially each call to a page is a database read

I have a simple website. The bandwidth is the dominant cost.

Re: Winds 2.0: It’s Time to Revive RSS

#287
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For reasons I don't understand, it remains incredibly difficult to scrape a well-organized blog and turn it into something I can consume like RSS or a kindle book. Note that many/most WordPress RSS feeds aren't that useful because they only show a snippet rather than the entire post. This dreary state of affairs is due in part to the fact that "checking" an RSS just means downloading the entire file containing all po…

“This insanely unnecessary bandwidth usage penalizes sites that have long (>10) feeds with complete posts.” Since rss is text only the sizes are very small and compress well. Considering the average web page is 3M[0], pulling down 10-100k of every post ever doesn’t matter. And http takes care of not pulling the same file over and over. It’s certainly a downside, but completely useable as is, and better than any viabl…

> Since rss is text only the sizes are very small and compress well. Considering the average web page is 3M[0], pulling down 10-100k of every post ever doesn’t matter.

My web pages are 100k and my RSS feed is 500k.

> It’s certainly a downside, but completely useable as is, and better than any viable alternative.

It doesn't fulfill the need I originally mentioned: making blog archives readable offline.

> As far as standards go, I prefer simple, static file, over something requiring dynamic response.

I agree static is better, but a dynamic response isn't necessary. You could just have a static file that listed all the blog posts, with a link to another static file for each post. This avoids having the user download 10 blog posts each time they want to poll if something new has happened.

Re: Winds 2.0: It’s Time to Revive RSS

#288

Why has this become so complicated? I use Newsboat https://newsboat.org/ to read RSS, and follow about 100 very interesting authors that way. I just put the RSS urls into a text file and the self-contained 1.7mb program does the rest. Somehow it gets by without using a combination of Electron, Mongo, Algolia, Redis, machine learning (!), and Sendgrid. Maybe the comparison with a text-based RSS reader isn't fair and W…

Very lovely, thank you for the suggestion. Looks a lot like default theme of Mutt and Irssi.

Re: Winds 2.0: It’s Time to Revive RSS

#289
post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This won't work because my users don't have software to automatically download the new posts, curate them, and save them for offline reading (in contrast to having the posts directly in the RSS file, for which all that does happen). That would require...a new standard, i.e., a replacement for RSS.

No, it would require a new type of consumer. RSS can carry a list of URLs just fine, as a degenerate case of RSS. RSS does not itself mandate that the content of the RSS must be displayed in "some sort of feed reader". The good news is that means you don't have to wait. You can write that now. It will work on existing RSS feeds, just not quite as optimally for your proposed use case as you might personally like, but…

I'm using "RSS" to refer to the standard practice people actually do. It's not very important that some organization somewhere defined an official RSS standard which in principle is flexible but which in practice is never used other than in a very specific way. (Without an agreement on how to use it more generally, no one can build an offline blog archive reader, and the fact that RSS could in principle be the base is irrelevant.)

If you want to play semantics, I'm fine with rephrasing my complaint as: "We need to build on the flexible super official RSS standard -- which is little more than an XML file -- and actually agree on a way of delivering blog archives for offline reading. RSS in practice does not currently achieve this very simple goal." This is just different words to describe the same thing.

> You can write that now. It will work on existing RSS feeds, just not quite as optimally for your proposed use case as you might personally like, but it will still work.

Huh? Other website owners who would like me to be able to read their archives can modify their RSS file, but we have no agreement on how to do that in a standard way. Likewise, I could modify my RSS file, but since there isn't a standard my readers won't have software to take advantage of it.

> (History strongly suggests the large-scale content producers would actively fight you if you try,...unfortunately getting around this problem is a great deal more difficult than hypothesizing that some sort of new standard could somehow deal with it....)

The blogs I want to read offline do not have ads and do not care about this. I just want a solution that works for this simple problem, not a way to take content from people who don't want to give it to me without attaching ads.

Re: Winds 2.0: It’s Time to Revive RSS

#290
post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So apparently many people are doing (1), and if my feed is short then they are limited in the blog history they can read to how long they've personally been subscribed (or less, if they need to clear their device and can't re-download my old posts). RSS is a means for people to follow new posts from you, in order to read new posts they are supposed to come to your blog and use your archives.

The whole point of this subthread is about reading archives offline, and how RSS can't manage this. From my first comment: > it remains incredibly difficult to scrape a well-organized blog and turn it into something I can consume like RSS or a kindle book. > Note that many/most WordPress RSS feeds aren't that useful because...

> The whole point of this subthread is about reading archives offline, and how RSS can't manage this. From my first comment:

I don't think so, but maybe I missed. It is not the purpose of RSS anyways, though. RSS is for me to know when you post something new.

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