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Deadly Chinese Fentanyl Is Creating a New Era of Drug Kingpins

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Re: Deadly Chinese Fentanyl Is Creating a New Era of Drug Kingpins

#51

Post by DanBC »

rhizome wrote: post #47
gowld wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not quite right. Legislators certainly can keep up; all they need to do pass a broad ban on chemicals with the undesired empirical properties.

You can't legislate a state of mind, and people have different reactions to different substances, so I'm a little confused as to what form this "broad ban" would take.

Here: The Psychoactive Substances Act 2016.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2016/2/contents/enacted

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychoactive_Substances_Act_20...

But also the UK has rapid powers to add a substance to the schedule in the Misuse of Drugs Act. Here's a recent list: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/controlled-drugs-...

Here's schedule 2. I don't know how often this gets updated: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1971/38/schedule/2

> You can't legislate a state of mind,

You can legislate "intoxication", although the methods for doing so are pretty crude at the moment.

Re: Deadly Chinese Fentanyl Is Creating a New Era of Drug Kingpins

#52

Post by maxerickson »

rhizome wrote: post #47
gowld wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not quite right. Legislators certainly can keep up; all they need to do pass a broad ban on chemicals with the undesired empirical properties.

You can't legislate a state of mind, and people have different reactions to different substances, so I'm a little confused as to what form this "broad ban" would take.

Just ban chemicals that interact with certain receptors:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serotonin_receptor_agonist#5-H...

Re: Deadly Chinese Fentanyl Is Creating a New Era of Drug Kingpins

#53

Post by freeflight »

vis52 wrote: post #41
thousandautumns wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was a Times article several years ago about the rise of synthetic cannabis and they said legislators can't keep up with new chemical formulations. They take several months to study and ban one chemical, and the manufacturers turn around and tweak it slightly and it's a "new" drug that hasn't been made illegal yet.

Yup. From what I could tell that's almost exactly what's happening in Europe as well. One difference though is that it takes even longer since each member state bans these individually. From what I saw there are RC variants of many drugs I've never heard of but I saw RC-LSD, RC synthetic cannabis, RC-ecstasy, angel dust...

It is very much a European thing, not as popular in the US due to easier access to cannabis and it was synthetic Cannabis (Spice) that started the whole craze a couple of years ago, followed by "bath salts" which then extended to the whole RC line of drugs.

Tbh the government reactions to this, banning specific substances cannabinoids in particular, have made this situation just that much worse.

This stuff booming like that should have told them the whole story: That there's a very real demand for legalization. Instead, they continue prohibition practices even further, forcing manufacturers to use other (much more dangerous) substances, a game they've now played so long that by now most of these synthetic Cannabis variants have nothing at all do anymore with the "natural stuff" and instead have become extremely destructive and addictive substances [0]

By insisting on the prohibition stance the regulators literally made "weed" lethal.

[0] http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-birmingham-43600584

Re: Deadly Chinese Fentanyl Is Creating a New Era of Drug Kingpins

#54

Post by soundwave106 »

rhizome wrote: post #47
gowld wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not quite right. Legislators certainly can keep up; all they need to do pass a broad ban on chemicals with the undesired empirical properties.

You can't legislate a state of mind, and people have different reactions to different substances, so I'm a little confused as to what form this "broad ban" would take.

The United States has a "broad ban" in place called the Federal Analogue Act -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Analogue_Act

The definition is "not 100% exact" in its nature, but dealers have been prosecuted and sent to prison for violating this.

It's also possible to apply broad bans to Markush structures (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structural_scheduling_of_synth...), which is how I understand some places attempt to regulate synthetic cannabinoids and other broad classes of chemicals.

(Keep in mind these laws do not apply to fentanyl -- in the United States, fentanyl is schedule II and is available as prescription medicine. Illicit fentanyl is more "illegal drug market" than "research chemicals"; cocaine is in the same boat in the US as well, a schedule II drug that's available on the illicit market. The above might apply to any fentanyl analogues though.)

Re: Deadly Chinese Fentanyl Is Creating a New Era of Drug Kingpins

#55

Post by chiefalchemist »

astebbin wrote: post #32
chiefalchemist wrote: post #21

When drug kingpins + dealers kill off their customers, instead of addicting them to make as much money possible, then it feels like something more dark and ainister is at hand. Given the history in the USA (i.e., black communities) perhaps American officials are just culling the herd?

It’s how dealers drum up new business. When one customer ODs, other customers flock to the dealer whose product just proved its potency.

Yes. But hardly the traditional drug dealer biz model. They're the original subscription model.

I don't aee how growth by killing your customers is sustainable.

Re: Deadly Chinese Fentanyl Is Creating a New Era of Drug Kingpins

#56

Post by chiefalchemist »

southphillyman wrote: post #25
chiefalchemist wrote: post #21

When drug kingpins + dealers kill off their customers, instead of addicting them to make as much money possible, then it feels like something more dark and ainister is at hand. Given the history in the USA (i.e., black communities) perhaps American officials are just culling the herd?

That was the conspiracy with crack cocaine, most of these fentanyl victims appear to be Caucasian. There are record over dose numbers in the wealthy suburbs near where I live, Montgomery County

None the less, it's culling the herd. The historic ref was for those who would too quickly dismiss the possibility.

Re: Deadly Chinese Fentanyl Is Creating a New Era of Drug Kingpins

#57

Post by vis52 »

nacho2sweet wrote: post #49

Fentanyl is a huge problem in Vancouver, where we are usually ground zero for all new opiate trends. Besides killing over 1100 people a year in BC, the money also seeps back into our overheated real-estate market through casino money laundering. It is a crazy cycle. I have no idea why world governments and our own don't say and do more against China. Spineless.

When did this start in Vancouver?

I am actually surprised that something like this happens in Canada, usually seems that news report these sorts of "epidemics" mostly from the US.

Re: Deadly Chinese Fentanyl Is Creating a New Era of Drug Kingpins

#58

Post by smallnamespace »

nacho2sweet wrote: post #49

Fentanyl is a huge problem in Vancouver, where we are usually ground zero for all new opiate trends. Besides killing over 1100 people a year in BC, the money also seeps back into our overheated real-estate market through casino money laundering. It is a crazy cycle. I have no idea why world governments and our own don't say and do more against China. Spineless.

This is the downside of having global economic integration (buy anything from anywhere for the cost of USPS shipping) without political integration. It's the same type of problem as Greek debtors vs. German creditors except in a different context.

Fentanyl analogues are not a problem in China, hence the relative slowness in cracking down on them.

The supplier is in China, but the buyer is the West. Why does moral culpability only fall on one party?

Re: Deadly Chinese Fentanyl Is Creating a New Era of Drug Kingpins

#59

Post by AzzieElbab »

nacho2sweet wrote: post #49

Fentanyl is a huge problem in Vancouver, where we are usually ground zero for all new opiate trends. Besides killing over 1100 people a year in BC, the money also seeps back into our overheated real-estate market through casino money laundering. It is a crazy cycle. I have no idea why world governments and our own don't say and do more against China. Spineless.

the word you are looking for is corrupt. In some cases indirectly. So many Canadians have all their savings tided up in their homes, the government cannot risk taking drastic steps that might crash the housing market

Re: Deadly Chinese Fentanyl Is Creating a New Era of Drug Kingpins

#60

Post by chiefalchemist »

cowboysauce wrote: post #29
chiefalchemist wrote: post #21

When drug kingpins + dealers kill off their customers, instead of addicting them to make as much money possible, then it feels like something more dark and ainister is at hand. Given the history in the USA (i.e., black communities) perhaps American officials are just culling the herd?

There doesn't need to be anything sinister about it. Fentanyl is cheap and potent. You can take cheap, low quality heroin, mix it with a little fentanyl and sell it for more profit as high quality heroin. However, if it's not mixed perfectly, you end up with "hotspots" of fentanyl. If someone ends up with a hotspot they can easily overdose. The occasion overdose also attracts more users because it gives the impressio…

Nothing sinister about a biz model that kills its customers? This is hardly the (illegal) drug industry's traditional approach. The deviation begs to ask: What's the point then?

Some will not aak. I believe it's a legit query.

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