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Philip Roth has died

nytimes.com

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Re: Philip Roth has died

#61

Post by benkarst »

danso wrote: post #60
benkarst wrote: post #43

The article called Roth "one of the last great white males". I had to read that five times to make sure that phrase was actually used. wtf. How is this okay on any level?

If you read that 5 times over, maybe it's worth including more of the context of the phrase: > Mr. Roth was the last of the great white males: the triumvirate of writers — Saul Bellow and John Updike were the others — who towered over American letters in the second half of the 20th century. Seems that "great white males" refers to a specific trio of writers -- all white men -- who were seen as the giants of American…

That he used the term "great white males" when he should have used "Great Male Narcissists". Would a high school newspaper even make a mistake such as this? It's either sloppy, malicious, or both.

Re: Philip Roth has died

#62

Post by gazarsgo »

benkarst wrote: post #61
danso wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you read that 5 times over, maybe it's worth including more of the context of the phrase: > Mr. Roth was the last of the great white males: the triumvirate of writers — Saul Bellow and John Updike were the others — who towered over American letters in the second half of the 20th century. Seems that "great white males" refers to a specific trio of writers -- all white men -- who were seen as the giants of American…

That he used the term "great white males" when he should have used "Great Male Narcissists". Would a high school newspaper even make a mistake such as this? It's either sloppy, malicious, or both.

Both terms seem equally redundant. Why stress?

Re: Philip Roth has died

#63

Post by danso »

benkarst wrote: post #61
danso wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you read that 5 times over, maybe it's worth including more of the context of the phrase: > Mr. Roth was the last of the great white males: the triumvirate of writers — Saul Bellow and John Updike were the others — who towered over American letters in the second half of the 20th century. Seems that "great white males" refers to a specific trio of writers -- all white men -- who were seen as the giants of American…

That he used the term "great white males" when he should have used "Great Male Narcissists". Would a high school newspaper even make a mistake such as this? It's either sloppy, malicious, or both.

Sorry, I'm not following. Is "Great Male Narcissists" a popular pronoun in this context?

Re: Philip Roth has died

#64

Post by slg »

jdonaldson wrote: post #50
westoncb wrote: post #9

I started reading Roth a couple months ago as part of a project to learn how to write better fiction (I also chose Philip K. Dick at the same time for some reason...). I partly chose Roth after seeing by how much he outnumbered any other writer in terms of entries for best 100 novels of the 20th century (I don't remember who published the list, but it was something pretty credible, and he had 6 entries on there IIRC)…

I love Philip Dick but I wouldn't recommend emulating his writing style. None of his accomplishments are a result of his prose. His character/plot development, dialog, scene... they're all just mediocre imho. However, his ability to touch a contemporary nerve with a concept or plot device is singular, although I think Mary Shelly comes close.

There is a reason why Dick is one of the most adapted authors but almost none of those adaptions are particularly faithful. He was amazing at creating high concept ideas, but often the execution failed to fully capture the potential of those ideas. I wonder if he was some 20 or 30 years younger whether he might have spent his entire career in movies and TV which has a more collaborative creative environment that could have let his strengths really shine through while hiding some of his weaknesses as a storyteller.

Re: Philip Roth has died

#65

Post by anateus »

gattr wrote: post #25

There is a scene in Peter F. Hamilton's SF novel "Fallen Dragon" which immediately made me remember the restaurant "joke" from "Portnoy's Complaint". SPOILER Only here, the protagonist vomits violently after learning he's been treated (by his weirdo girlfriend) to some actual real meat from, yuck... a killed animal... not your regular vat-grown meat that every civilized person eats. Oh, the power of childhood program…

I remember that scene, and I remember in my own childhood reading a similar scene in an Efremov novel (Andromeda or its sequels I can't recall which).

Re: Philip Roth has died

#66

Post by jdonaldson »

xkcd-sucks wrote: post #53
jdonaldson wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love Philip Dick but I wouldn't recommend emulating his writing style. None of his accomplishments are a result of his prose. His character/plot development, dialog, scene... they're all just mediocre imho. However, his ability to touch a contemporary nerve with a concept or plot device is singular, although I think Mary Shelly comes close.

Try VALIS, it's totally different from his science fiction

Somehow I've missed this one. I always pick it up and check out the back cover. Then I put it back down when I read the name "horselover fat". I just can't get past that for some reason.

Re: Philip Roth has died

#67

Post by jdonaldson »

slg wrote: post #64
jdonaldson wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love Philip Dick but I wouldn't recommend emulating his writing style. None of his accomplishments are a result of his prose. His character/plot development, dialog, scene... they're all just mediocre imho. However, his ability to touch a contemporary nerve with a concept or plot device is singular, although I think Mary Shelly comes close.

There is a reason why Dick is one of the most adapted authors but almost none of those adaptions are particularly faithful. He was amazing at creating high concept ideas, but often the execution failed to fully capture the potential of those ideas. I wonder if he was some 20 or 30 years younger whether he might have spent his entire career in movies and TV which has a more collaborative creative environment that coul…

I agree a modern day Philip Dick would be amazing. There was nowhere near the appetite for Sci Fiction back then as there is now. Dick churned out dos-a-dos bound pulp paperbacks, and most of his work is in short stories he published in magazines. He's a bit like Dickens in this way. All his ideas had to fit within pretty tight constraints, within crude mediums.

Re: Philip Roth has died

#68

Post by artpepper2 »

benkarst wrote: post #43

The article called Roth "one of the last great white males". I had to read that five times to make sure that phrase was actually used. wtf. How is this okay on any level?

I think it's meant to be a pun on "great white whale" - there's an idea of the "Great American Novel" which is the mythical book standing at the apex of American literature.

Moby-Dick is both a template for the Great American Novel and a convenient metaphor for authors who chase it. It's an old-fashioned way of thinking about the novel.

And this may be a contentious statement, but: It's probably not a coincidence that the traditional contenders for "Great American Novelist" have tended to be white males. Roth, Bellow, Updike, but also Hemingway, Pynchon, Gaddis, etc.

That doesn't detract from those authors' accomplishments. I think it says more about how the canon has evolved.

Re: Philip Roth has died

#69

Post by pphysch »

jdonaldson wrote: post #66
xkcd-sucks wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Try VALIS, it's totally different from his science fiction

Somehow I've missed this one. I always pick it up and check out the back cover. Then I put it back down when I read the name "horselover fat". I just can't get past that for some reason.

If it helps, Horselover Fat is just a multi-lingual translation of Philip Dick

Re: Philip Roth has died

#70

Post by dev_dev »

Andre_Wanglin wrote: post #22
westoncb wrote: post #9

I started reading Roth a couple months ago as part of a project to learn how to write better fiction (I also chose Philip K. Dick at the same time for some reason...). I partly chose Roth after seeing by how much he outnumbered any other writer in terms of entries for best 100 novels of the 20th century (I don't remember who published the list, but it was something pretty credible, and he had 6 entries on there IIRC)…

You might like My Life as A Man. Read some online reviews first, though. Especially the angry ones. If those give you a laugh, you should definitely read it.

Online reviews usually tend towards the popular opinion.
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