Philip Roth has died • Hacker News Board

Re: Philip Roth has died

#51

Post by benkarst » Wed, May 23, 2018, 4:27 PM UTC

runjake wrote: post #44

benkarst wrote: post #43

The article called Roth "one of the last great white males". I had to read that five times to make sure that phrase was actually used. wtf. How is this okay on any level?

Calm down. I believe the term has to do with age, and not race. It's a post-war (WW2) term that's been used for decades to describe Roth and certain other writers, such as Norman Mailer, Gore Vidal, Salinger, Bellow, Updike and others. It's a term to describe a group of certain authors that wrote about certain themes, similar to the Hollywood term "Brat Pack".

Silly me, I didn't know "white" is a term that describes age.

Re: Philip Roth has died

#52

Post by benkarst » Wed, May 23, 2018, 4:29 PM UTC

jessup wrote: post #47

benkarst wrote: post #43

The article called Roth "one of the last great white males". I had to read that five times to make sure that phrase was actually used. wtf. How is this okay on any level?

"Mailer, Updike, Roth-the Great Male Narcissists* who’ve dominated postwar realist fiction are now in their senescence, and it must seem to them no coincidence that the prospect of their own deaths appears backlit by the approaching millennium and on-line predictions of the death of the novel as we know it." David Foster Wallace (1997) http://observer.com/1997/10/john-updike-champion-literary-ph...

The author of the article does not use "great white males" as a personal pronoun. Nor does the article you linked include any mention of race.

Re: Philip Roth has died

#53

Post by xkcd-sucks » Wed, May 23, 2018, 4:49 PM UTC

jdonaldson wrote: post #50

westoncb wrote: post #9

I started reading Roth a couple months ago as part of a project to learn how to write better fiction (I also chose Philip K. Dick at the same time for some reason...). I partly chose Roth after seeing by how much he outnumbered any other writer in terms of entries for best 100 novels of the 20th century (I don't remember who published the list, but it was something pretty credible, and he had 6 entries on there IIRC)…

I love Philip Dick but I wouldn't recommend emulating his writing style. None of his accomplishments are a result of his prose. His character/plot development, dialog, scene... they're all just mediocre imho. However, his ability to touch a contemporary nerve with a concept or plot device is singular, although I think Mary Shelly comes close.

Try VALIS, it's totally different from his science fiction

Re: Philip Roth has died

#54

Post by WiseWeasel » Wed, May 23, 2018, 4:52 PM UTC

Andre_Wanglin wrote: post #21

WiseWeasel wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does a tyrant's marketing campaign matter?

It is of no interest to you how some tyrants come to be reviled while others are lionized?

Not really. The ones doing the lionizing are obviously deceived or fearful for their lives and loved ones.

Re: Philip Roth has died

#55

Post by vonnik » Wed, May 23, 2018, 4:58 PM UTC

David Foster Wallace wrote a review of an Updike book in 1998 that also shed some light on Roth:

http://observer.com/1997/10/john-updike-champion-literary-ph...

Re: Philip Roth has died

#56

Post by Lordarminius » Wed, May 23, 2018, 4:58 PM UTC

westoncb wrote: post #9

I started reading Roth a couple months ago as part of a project to learn how to write better fiction (I also chose Philip K. Dick at the same time for some reason...). I partly chose Roth after seeing by how much he outnumbered any other writer in terms of entries for best 100 novels of the 20th century (I don't remember who published the list, but it was something pretty credible, and he had 6 entries on there IIRC)…

I started reading Roth a couple months ago as part of a project to learn how to write better fiction

I freely admit that this is my personal biased opinion, but if your goal is to write better, you could do no better than study Bellow and Updike.

Re: Philip Roth has died

#57

Post by patrickg_zill » Wed, May 23, 2018, 5:02 PM UTC

westoncb wrote: post #9

I started reading Roth a couple months ago as part of a project to learn how to write better fiction (I also chose Philip K. Dick at the same time for some reason...). I partly chose Roth after seeing by how much he outnumbered any other writer in terms of entries for best 100 novels of the 20th century (I don't remember who published the list, but it was something pretty credible, and he had 6 entries on there IIRC)…

I'd suggest looking at Morley Callaghan also.

Re: Philip Roth has died

#58

Post by patrickg_zill » Wed, May 23, 2018, 5:06 PM UTC

mratzloff wrote: post #40

chengiz wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a conspiracy theory. In all likelihood it was just a few fascist businessmen concocting dream scenarios. Reactions [1]: "No doubt, MacGuire did have some wild scheme in mind, though the gap between contemplation and execution was considerable, and it can hardly be supposed that the Republic was in much danger" "At their core, the accusations probably consisted of a mixture of actual attempts at influence pedd…

The full extent of the plot is unclear, but that there was some kind of plot is certain. Many financial and business leaders of the time were rumored to be fascists like Lindbergh.[1] Of course, if you compare Butler's handler to the strange cast of characters in the history of widely-known American political plots (Watergate, Iran-Contra, etc.), truth is often stranger than fiction. [1] William Dodd, the U.S. Ambass…

Lindbergh was not a fascist; he was an isolationist.

His stated strategy to the coming war was that Hitler would eventually turn on Russia (he was right) and that Germany and Russia would grind each other down (also true: the total destruction of the Sixth Army at Stalingrad (now Volgograd) is one example).

After both countries were very weak, then American armies could swoop in and mop up after both armies had exhausted themselves, with minimal losses to the American side.

Re: Philip Roth has died

#59

Post by runjake » Wed, May 23, 2018, 5:13 PM UTC

benkarst wrote: post #51

runjake wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Calm down. I believe the term has to do with age, and not race. It's a post-war (WW2) term that's been used for decades to describe Roth and certain other writers, such as Norman Mailer, Gore Vidal, Salinger, Bellow, Updike and others. It's a term to describe a group of certain authors that wrote about certain themes, similar to the Hollywood term "Brat Pack".

Silly me, I didn't know "white" is a term that describes age.

It's often used (as in this case) a colloquial term alluding age via hair color (IOW, "white-haired" old people).

Re: Philip Roth has died

#60

Post by danso » Wed, May 23, 2018, 5:13 PM UTC

benkarst wrote: post #43

The article called Roth "one of the last great white males". I had to read that five times to make sure that phrase was actually used. wtf. How is this okay on any level?

If you read that 5 times over, maybe it's worth including more of the context of the phrase:

> Mr. Roth was the last of the great white males: the triumvirate of writers — Saul Bellow and John Updike were the others — who towered over American letters in the second half of the 20th century.

Seems that "great white males" refers to a specific trio of writers -- all white men -- who were seen as the giants of American literature in a specific era in history.

What's your specific objection?