Philip Roth has died • Hacker News Board

Re: Philip Roth has died

#41

Post by [deleted] » Wed, May 23, 2018, 3:05 PM UTC

kbutler wrote: post #30

dibstern wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. You can realise your ignorance without having to immediately correct every instance of it. And you can enjoy the slow uncovering of new information and points of view, building each into your worldview bit by bit. This is part of the joy of life, for me, the journey to deeper and deeper levels of understanding of the world. And a decision to stick to one side is, in my opinion, a little lazy. No insult me…

Fish or cut bait. Often the expected value of committing to one side, even if it is not the optimal choice, exceeds the probable value of the optimal choice delayed for additional evaluation. But there is a human tendency to increasingly feel that one's choice is more obviously correct than it really was, leading to discounting contrary evidence and even demonizing those who make the opposite choice.

[deleted]

Re: Philip Roth has died

#42

Post by Gimpei » Wed, May 23, 2018, 3:28 PM UTC

Should have won the Nobel. Why they never picked him is beyond me.

Re: Philip Roth has died

#43

Post by benkarst » Wed, May 23, 2018, 3:43 PM UTC

The article called Roth "one of the last great white males". I had to read that five times to make sure that phrase was actually used. wtf. How is this okay on any level?

Re: Philip Roth has died

#44

Post by runjake » Wed, May 23, 2018, 3:52 PM UTC

benkarst wrote: post #43

The article called Roth "one of the last great white males". I had to read that five times to make sure that phrase was actually used. wtf. How is this okay on any level?

Calm down.

I believe the term has to do with age, and not race.

It's a post-war (WW2) term that's been used for decades to describe Roth and certain other writers, such as Norman Mailer, Gore Vidal, Salinger, Bellow, Updike and others. It's a term to describe a group of certain authors that wrote about certain themes, similar to the Hollywood term "Brat Pack".

Re: Philip Roth has died

#45

Post by VoodooJuJu » Wed, May 23, 2018, 3:52 PM UTC

benkarst wrote: post #43

The article called Roth "one of the last great white males". I had to read that five times to make sure that phrase was actually used. wtf. How is this okay on any level?

It's not - the pendulum is beginning to swing in the other direction. People are starting to wise up to and reject these group identity narratives, as evidenced by the rising popularity of people like Jordan Peterson.

Re: Philip Roth has died

#46

Post by msla » Wed, May 23, 2018, 3:59 PM UTC

runjake wrote: post #44

benkarst wrote: post #43

The article called Roth "one of the last great white males". I had to read that five times to make sure that phrase was actually used. wtf. How is this okay on any level?

Calm down. I believe the term has to do with age, and not race. It's a post-war (WW2) term that's been used for decades to describe Roth and certain other writers, such as Norman Mailer, Gore Vidal, Salinger, Bellow, Updike and others. It's a term to describe a group of certain authors that wrote about certain themes, similar to the Hollywood term "Brat Pack".

> I believe the term has to do with hair color, and not race.

Was this dumb joke worth making the second line of your post?

Anyway, it resonates with the "Great White Hunter" idea, which is even less acceptable today, and, to some extent, with the "Great White Whale" of Moby Dick. It's a simple fact about race, to a simple extent, and it's an expression that they were on top in a way no group will (should) ever be again.

Re: Philip Roth has died

#47

Post by jessup » Wed, May 23, 2018, 4:00 PM UTC

benkarst wrote: post #43

The article called Roth "one of the last great white males". I had to read that five times to make sure that phrase was actually used. wtf. How is this okay on any level?

"Mailer, Updike, Roth-the Great Male Narcissists* who’ve dominated postwar realist fiction are now in their senescence, and it must seem to them no coincidence that the prospect of their own deaths appears backlit by the approaching millennium and on-line predictions of the death of the novel as we know it."

David Foster Wallace (1997)

http://observer.com/1997/10/john-updike-champion-literary-ph...

Re: Philip Roth has died

#48

Post by [deleted] » Wed, May 23, 2018, 4:14 PM UTC

VoodooJuJu wrote: post #45

benkarst wrote: post #43

The article called Roth "one of the last great white males". I had to read that five times to make sure that phrase was actually used. wtf. How is this okay on any level?

It's not - the pendulum is beginning to swing in the other direction. People are starting to wise up to and reject these group identity narratives, as evidenced by the rising popularity of people like Jordan Peterson.

[deleted]

Re: Philip Roth has died

#49

Post by miobrien » Wed, May 23, 2018, 4:14 PM UTC

westoncb wrote: post #9

I started reading Roth a couple months ago as part of a project to learn how to write better fiction (I also chose Philip K. Dick at the same time for some reason...). I partly chose Roth after seeing by how much he outnumbered any other writer in terms of entries for best 100 novels of the 20th century (I don't remember who published the list, but it was something pretty credible, and he had 6 entries on there IIRC)…

These are early works. He became famous for them, especially Portnoy. But Roth got better as he got older, in my opinion. My favorites are The Counterlife (1985), Sabbath's Theater (1995), American Pastoral (1997), I Married a Communist (1998), The Human Stain (2000), The Plot Against America (2004).

Also, as with a lot of (maybe all?) fiction/art, you can't disregard the context in which it was published. Some critics might disagree with this. But when you consider the socio-cultural situation, especially of Jewish Americans, Roth's work -- especially Portnoy -- was radical, earnest, and subversive. For many years, the American Jewish community regarded him with disdain.

He also often got labeled as a misogynist, which I always found strange. Although his writing is overtly sexual, it was also in attempt to make a point about sexuality. Not to glorify it.

Re: Philip Roth has died

#50

Post by jdonaldson » Wed, May 23, 2018, 4:17 PM UTC

westoncb wrote: post #9

I started reading Roth a couple months ago as part of a project to learn how to write better fiction (I also chose Philip K. Dick at the same time for some reason...). I partly chose Roth after seeing by how much he outnumbered any other writer in terms of entries for best 100 novels of the 20th century (I don't remember who published the list, but it was something pretty credible, and he had 6 entries on there IIRC)…

I love Philip Dick but I wouldn't recommend emulating his writing style. None of his accomplishments are a result of his prose. His character/plot development, dialog, scene... they're all just mediocre imho. However, his ability to touch a contemporary nerve with a concept or plot device is singular, although I think Mary Shelly comes close.