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Can Things Be Both Popular and Silenced?

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Re: Can Things Be Both Popular and Silenced?

#61

Post by guelo »

Density wrote: post #35
dnomad wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No they didn't. Yes, it's all the Iraqis fault. And I'm sure you sincerely believe that despite it being utterly insane. > Are you suggesting the media, hollywood, and universities aren't left-leaning? Ironically, you've aptly demonstrated the entire point. If you asked this question to most people outside of America (you know, the other 7.3 billion people on the planet) I think many would probably agree that no, A…

The universities are so far left there's a university ethics professor who smashed an alt right protester's skull in with a bike lock. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-intersect/wp/2017/05...

Nice anecdote. I have one, the conservative billionaire Koch brothers use donations to force conservative curriculum and the hiring of conservative professors at several universities.

Re: Can Things Be Both Popular and Silenced?

#62

Post by sanxiyn »

silveroriole wrote: post #59
Density wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember a certain Google employee who lost his job for having those non-taboo opinions.

Partly for openly and tactlessly disagreeing with company hiring policies! Still, he found rather widespread dissemination and some amount of support for his views. Is that silencing? And can “women are naturally uninterested in/poorer at science” really, over the recent course of human history, be regarded as NOT a common or mainstream opinion? I remember a Feynman quote where he was amazed that women could understa…

Eh, being fired seems to constitute silencing, at least to me.

Re: Can Things Be Both Popular and Silenced?

#63

Post by oicie0uD »

jacobmoe wrote: post #48
mpweiher wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They already did. https://www.change.org/p/ask-patreon-to-pull-the-plug-on-pet... Didn't go very far. I dimly remember a direct attempt to get Patreon to pull the plug, but that could have been somebody else.

Ah a change.org petition. The PC left is out of control! This is a great example of what bugs me about this crowd. They seemlessly move from actual problematic behavior (like a few famous examples of deplatforming at a few elite college campuses) to Twitter mobs and not entirely supportive op-ed pieces, as if it's all of a kind. Every public person gets Twitter mobbed, but they talk about mean people on Twitter as if…

Twitter mobs on their own are indeed mostly harmless. Employers and other organizations that can have an actual impact on the target of the mob and who are complicit with it to avoid the possibility of making the life of PR people more difficult by having to defend the distinction between corporation and the personal opinions of low level employees are not.

Of course both sides are guilty of that and they basically crib from each other's playbook in the spirit of "having them taste their own medicine". In the end it it is never what one would call civilized discourse, no matter who is doing it and who you disagree with.

Re: Can Things Be Both Popular and Silenced?

#64

Post by Presquare »

guelo wrote: post #57
jacobmoe wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah a change.org petition. The PC left is out of control! This is a great example of what bugs me about this crowd. They seemlessly move from actual problematic behavior (like a few famous examples of deplatforming at a few elite college campuses) to Twitter mobs and not entirely supportive op-ed pieces, as if it's all of a kind. Every public person gets Twitter mobbed, but they talk about mean people on Twitter as if…

In so many cases, including in this article, they refuse to look at data and just point to anecdotes on top of anecdotes to pretend they're uniquely aggrieved.

What data are you referring to?

Re: Can Things Be Both Popular and Silenced?

#65

Post by [deleted] »

sheepmullet wrote: post #36
dnomad wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No they didn't. Yes, it's all the Iraqis fault. And I'm sure you sincerely believe that despite it being utterly insane. > Are you suggesting the media, hollywood, and universities aren't left-leaning? Ironically, you've aptly demonstrated the entire point. If you asked this question to most people outside of America (you know, the other 7.3 billion people on the planet) I think many would probably agree that no, A…

> despite it being utterly insane. Why is it insane? > If you asked this question to most people outside of America If you asked them if American media, Hollywood and universities were American-left then I think the vast majority would agree. And that's what actually matters. Not what they consider to be left-wing by their own cultural standards.

[deleted]

Re: Can Things Be Both Popular and Silenced?

#66

Post by jacobmoe »

Presquare wrote: post #64
guelo wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In so many cases, including in this article, they refuse to look at data and just point to anecdotes on top of anecdotes to pretend they're uniquely aggrieved.

What data are you referring to?

You could easily come up with data that might be interesting to look at when discussing this question:

- are college liberals more or less likely to answer survey questions supportive of free speech than they were in the past

- has the annual rate of incidents of college activist excesses (such as violence over unwelcome speech) been increasing over time, or has the media environment just made it seem that way?

- are liberals more or less likely to support free speech than conservatives?

and so on. All we hear about is the same few anecdotes over and over again. Don't get me wrong, if there has been backsliding on support for free speech on the left than it's something I think we should be concerned about. I'm just not convinced that the panic we're seeing is justified. Certainly not when you compare this problem to the other problems we're currently facing as a society.

edit: formatting

edit: ironic that I've found no other topic on the internet where people are more likely to downvote you without engaging in reasoned debate than on the question of whether _other people_ are willing enough to engage in reasoned debate.

Re: Can Things Be Both Popular and Silenced?

#67

Post by mpweiher »

jacobmoe wrote: post #66
Presquare wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What data are you referring to?

You could easily come up with data that might be interesting to look at when discussing this question: - are college liberals more or less likely to answer survey questions supportive of free speech than they were in the past - has the annual rate of incidents of college activist excesses (such as violence over unwelcome speech) been increasing over time, or has the media environment just made it seem that way? - are…

> You could easily come up with data

Yes, you could. And it's been done:

The Skeptics are Wrong Part 1-3: Attitudes About Free Speech On Campus are Changing

https://heterodoxacademy.org/skeptics-are-wrong-about-campus...

https://heterodoxacademy.org/the-skeptics-are-wrong-part-2/

https://heterodoxacademy.org/the-skeptics-are-wrong-part-3-i...

You're welcome! :-)

Re: Can Things Be Both Popular and Silenced?

#68

Post by jacobmoe »

mpweiher wrote: post #67
jacobmoe wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could easily come up with data that might be interesting to look at when discussing this question: - are college liberals more or less likely to answer survey questions supportive of free speech than they were in the past - has the annual rate of incidents of college activist excesses (such as violence over unwelcome speech) been increasing over time, or has the media environment just made it seem that way? - are…

> You could easily come up with data Yes, you could. And it's been done: The Skeptics are Wrong Part 1-3: Attitudes About Free Speech On Campus are Changing https://heterodoxacademy.org/skeptics-are-wrong-about-campus... https://heterodoxacademy.org/the-skeptics-are-wrong-part-2/ https://heterodoxacademy.org/the-skeptics-are-wrong-part-3-i... You're welcome! :-)

Thanks, I'll look at this, though I would advise retaining some skepticism when evaluating data from a single source, especially when that data is confirmatory of that source's stated mission. Here's some more to evaluate:

http://jmrphy.net/blog/2018/02/16/who-is-afraid-of-free-spee...

Re: Can Things Be Both Popular and Silenced?

#69

Post by coldtea »

soundwave106 wrote: post #60
coldtea wrote: post #19

> But shutting up is of course is the exact opposite of what the people involved are doing – as the Times points out, several IDW members have audiences in the millions, monthly Patreon revenue in the five to six figures, and (with a big enough security detail) regular college speaking engagements. That's beside the point though, as I don't think the complain/claim is that they are silenced from everywhere and have n…

Is there really such a thing as "mainstream" anymore? What I think the Internet has done is allowed many, many microcosms to exist -- and exist in ways that are often unknown to the vast majority, even if they are extremely big in their own sphere. In music, I have heard "who?" reactions from folks reacting to news about artists as well known as Avicii and One Direction. And it's true: if you don't follow any of the…

>Is there really such a thing as "mainstream" anymore?

Yes.

>In music, I have heard "who?" reactions from folks reacting to news about artists as well known as Avicii and One Direction.

That's because music in general is not as important in pop culture anymore (we now have games, apps, social media, netflix, and so on to pass time as well -- before it was either music/radio or some (limited in number) tv channels for everyday entertainment).

In any case, Avicii and One Direction will make it into most people's news (e.g. everybody show some piece about the death of Avicci, even if they don't know who he was), because everybody in the end will see one or all of these 5-10 news sources. And of course everybody knows others, like Kanye, even if they don't follow hip-hop news sources.

But much much fewer would hear news about this or that obscure artist, say Marc Ribot, or Phil Elverum.

The names you mentioned (and others, from Kanye to U2) are all over mainstream media, the others are mentioned only/mostly on specialist or fringe outlets and media.

Re: Can Things Be Both Popular and Silenced?

#70

Post by oicie0uD »

_xzxj wrote: post #38
thriway wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, I do feel like my ideas/community are the underdog and I'm not even all that rightwing (I'm pro stuff like basic income, but also against minimum wage). The thing about underdog is this. Our culture as produced in books/film/tv/music is dominated by left leaning beliefs. If your conservate the media that naturally surrounds you does not reflect or celebrate your values. Though I'm not saying they don't exist.…

I wouldn't really consider HN particularly left wing. It's fully capitalist and any thread that discusses social issues is full of libertarians. Anything that has a faint whiff of anti-capitalism is promptly removed from the front page. Sure there are _some_ wide-spread beliefs here that happen to align with the left, but I would suggest that HN is far more libertarian than it is left-wing.

It is a common observation that SV leanings vary when you look at social issues vs. looking at business concerns.
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