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Amazon Pushes Facial Recognition to Police, Critics See Surveillance Risk

nytimes.com

211–220 of 256 posts

Re: Amazon Pushes Facial Recognition to Police, Critics See Surveillance Risk

#211

I find this article a bit funny, and see it mostly as hype. I worked very revently on a large internal face detection service for a legal and compliance application at a large US company. Being pragmatic engineers, the first thing we did was to pilot test Rekognition against an in-house prototype built by modifying some open source deep learning approaches. Rekognition performed so poorly compared to our prototype (w…

As it get customers, it will likely get more and more resources thrown at it and get better and better. Even if the tech may not be useful right now, it probably will be in 5 years, and unless something is done now, another large slice of the little bit of privacy that remains will be gone.

I think this is unlikely because of the nature of the problem. It's kind of like when Paul Graham said consulting is fundamentally not scalable. Throwing more people at a problem like this one only works if you have dedicated consultants for every bespoke business case, because there's no one-size-fits-all model, and the way that performance limitations interacts with which kind of face detection models you can use is very complicated.

Companies would end up paying huge premia to Amazon essentially to have Amazon build in-house teams that would be equivalent, only much more expensive, than the companies own in-house team just building an in-house solution.

With some forms of consulting this can make sense, because the consulting services are temporary and should set the company in a position such that for the long run, the company can maintain the solution cost-effectively.

But for something like face detection, assuming it's a pivotal service you'll need on an on-going basis, this would become the worst sort of vendor lock-in imaginable, combined with the fact that if you don't appear to be creating growth for Amazon, you're liable to be deprioritized at any point, and at the mercy of Amazon's choices regarding when and how to address your bespoke need.

For these specialized machine learning services it doesn't fit the same kind of commodity model that AWS infrastructure uses, though that's currently how Amazon is pursuing it.

Don't get me wrong, Amazon is very good at making money and convincing nervous management to buy their brand. I suspect they will find ways to sell these services despite the services not being cost-effective or customizeable for bespoke customer situations.

But when I point out that Amazon's machine learning services don't offer cost-effective performance, it's very different from a "just throw more devs at it" kind of problem, fundamentally.

Re: Amazon Pushes Facial Recognition to Police, Critics See Surveillance Risk

#212
post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In 1984 they had audio/video monitoring inside every home. Today governments only have such monitoring in select public areas. That's a significant distinction.

hmm Cell phones in everyone pocket, Echo / Home Devices, etc etc etc Keep believing the government has no access to this data..

The government has no access to that data without due process mediated by a judge. That is not the same as continuous surveillance.

Re: Amazon Pushes Facial Recognition to Police, Critics See Surveillance Risk

#213
post #76

They are NOT selling a service that identifies people from data sets other than the police's supplied data sets. It is not inappropriate for police to be able to determine who they are interacting with if that person is a known criminal. The cat is out of the bag and is already something the police could do themselves. The real fear is when they are able to source commercially available information from linked in, fa…

>They are NOT selling a service that identifies people from data sets other than the police's supplied data sets.

I don't really give a shit what tiny little corner of respectability they hold onto so they can sleep well at night while ratcheting up the surveillance state.

Re: Amazon Pushes Facial Recognition to Police, Critics See Surveillance Risk

#214
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reasonable people can disagree on the definition of "unreasonable," however. Is it "unreasonable" for the Amber Alert system to co-opt the eyes and attention of ten thousand citizens around a kidnapped child? Hard to say. Most people seem to think 'no.' If that system could co-opt camera feeds instead of human attention, we could get most (all?) of the benefits of the existing Amber Alert without having to burn civil…

Amber Alerts are opt-out, not mandatory.

At least in Canada, the new Amber-Alert-over-LTE system is mandatory, and cannot be opted out of:

"People cannot opt out of this," said CRTC spokesperson Patricia Valladao. "There is a high importance that people — want it or not — receive these alerts."[0]

[0] http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/emergency-alerts-system-ph...

Re: Amazon Pushes Facial Recognition to Police, Critics See Surveillance Risk

#216
post #76

They are NOT selling a service that identifies people from data sets other than the police's supplied data sets. It is not inappropriate for police to be able to determine who they are interacting with if that person is a known criminal. The cat is out of the bag and is already something the police could do themselves. The real fear is when they are able to source commercially available information from linked in, fa…

A service that does recognition based analytics on images or video from your homw security camera seems like a multi-billion dollar idea to me.

Half the houses in my neighborhood have some sort of camera system that you can see, there are probably more that you can't. People are scared of things, there is a market there.

It's freaky 1984ish stuff to think about but normal type people have these cameras, it's only natural for there to be private databases used for analytical purposes.

Re: Amazon Pushes Facial Recognition to Police, Critics See Surveillance Risk

#217

Why? The surveillance is there. I used this with some personal video surveillance to identify some thieves who were casing driveways to find cars to get into. Instead of wasting hours looking at footage, I was able to give the police excerpts that helped them identify the perp. Also, because of the circumstances and footage, they were able to charge him with a more serious crime than petit larceny, which means he won…

I suspect that total involuntary surveillance is not something the majority of the (United States) populace signed up for. The legal Expectation of Privacy[0] continues to be important, even if there are people who think that it was a legal handwave that only existed due to lack of adequate technology. ---- [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expectation_of_privacy

The populace really doesn't sign up for the vast majority of policy.

Re: Amazon Pushes Facial Recognition to Police, Critics See Surveillance Risk

#218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The boring observation that I can make is that the folks living in that dystopia were very good at thinking that it was a dystopia. I know that's a circular epistemic wormhole to get into, but simply liking the authoritarian surveillance you live in doesn't remove the features that make it authoritarian and intimately surveilling you.

Right, but doesn't it remove the notion that the authoritarian, intimate-surveillance features are necessarily bad things? To stay in dystopian sci-fi: The computers on the Enterprise (TNG at least) were aware of crewmember's positions and health situation at all times as long as they were aboard ship. Do we imagine they felt spied upon? It seems instead being born into a world where surveillance is ubiquitous and be…

The Enterprise was a flagship Starship, the people aboard were the best of the Starfleet Academy, aboard for a limited duration pseudo-military expedition.

This is akin to saying "humans on board the IIS are monitored intensely, do they feel spied upon? Therefore we should all be willing and able to live for a lifetime with that level of monitoring".

And not taking into account that IIS visits are undertaken by very unusual, pre-selected people, for limited durations, being monitored by a single organization, mostly for the purposes of research and protecting their investment.

Which is completely not anything like reality for most people, where things are operated by goodness knows who, for goodness knows what reasons, and barely or not at all regulated against potential abuse.

Re: Amazon Pushes Facial Recognition to Police, Critics See Surveillance Risk

#219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I definitely feel like we're missing positive opportunities for mass surveillance. Things like being able to recognize someone in cardiac arrest, or who is at risk for a stroke. Someday mass surveillance will help as much as it hurts society.

What's interesting is that anyone implementing mass surveillance could care less about your proposed benefits.

> could care less about your proposed benefits.

Could they? Oh well, that is at least something then.

Re: Amazon Pushes Facial Recognition to Police, Critics See Surveillance Risk

#220
post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

hmm Cell phones in everyone pocket, Echo / Home Devices, etc etc etc Keep believing the government has no access to this data..

The government has no access to that data without due process mediated by a judge. That is not the same as continuous surveillance.

Snowden proved this was false.
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