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Amazon Pushes Facial Recognition to Police, Critics See Surveillance Risk

nytimes.com

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Re: Amazon Pushes Facial Recognition to Police, Critics See Surveillance Risk

#91
post #76

They are NOT selling a service that identifies people from data sets other than the police's supplied data sets. It is not inappropriate for police to be able to determine who they are interacting with if that person is a known criminal. The cat is out of the bag and is already something the police could do themselves. The real fear is when they are able to source commercially available information from linked in, fa…

Why would the police only use pictures of known criminals? Unless there are negative consequences for using something they will use whatever they can get their hands on...

Re: Amazon Pushes Facial Recognition to Police, Critics See Surveillance Risk

#92
post #41

Why? The surveillance is there. I used this with some personal video surveillance to identify some thieves who were casing driveways to find cars to get into. Instead of wasting hours looking at footage, I was able to give the police excerpts that helped them identify the perp. Also, because of the circumstances and footage, they were able to charge him with a more serious crime than petit larceny, which means he won…

"Whatever means you want" just has to not include matching to a database of suspicious people that are not currently under investigation for a real crime. Or to something with a floating definition like "terrorist". Which it won't. Just because Washington County says it's not currently being used for mass surveillance doesn't mean it won't be in the future or for other departments.

I know it’s cliche to bring up in these examples but there was an unintended negative outcome to Germany requiring people to register and pay some of their taxes to their church before ww2. The Nazis used that information to collect up and brand Jewish people and ultimately kill them. It is hard to imagine this tech will solely be used for good forever.

Re: Amazon Pushes Facial Recognition to Police, Critics See Surveillance Risk

#93
post #76

They are NOT selling a service that identifies people from data sets other than the police's supplied data sets. It is not inappropriate for police to be able to determine who they are interacting with if that person is a known criminal. The cat is out of the bag and is already something the police could do themselves. The real fear is when they are able to source commercially available information from linked in, fa…

It feels equivalent to auto-identifying license plates.

Re: Amazon Pushes Facial Recognition to Police, Critics See Surveillance Risk

#94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But I do see danger. Both in the misapplication of this unproven tech, and in the opportunity cost of wasting public funds on it.

then why work on it when it's bound for abuse either way?

It seems misguided to dismiss the technology itself, rather than scrutinizing specific uses. It reminds me of David Deutsch's book The Beginning of Infinity, which has an extended anecdote about a scientist who deeply objected to the development of color TVs because "people didn't need them" and he could only think of examples where bad actors would use them. Fast forward several decades, and color TVs are used for all sorts of important outcomes, like life-saving medical imaging technology, or sharing video of an important life moment with someone who is too sick to travel.

You could imagine similar things for face recognition. An Alzheimer's patient who has a large digital photo library of family members and events, and would like some information retrieval tool to help search for a specific memory, family member, etc. Or someone who takes stock photographs and wants to photoshop bystanders out of the photos so that nobody's image rights are infringed when submitting the stock photo for publication-- might want face detection to aid in the person-removal task.

I agree completely with scrutinizing motives and refusing to work on tech when the goal is unethical. But I don't agree this allows us to point at a generic, amoral technology in and of itself and say it's conceptually unethical for existing. Maybe there would be some extreme or contrived cases when I would agree to that, but even this face recognition stuff is very far from it.

Re: Amazon Pushes Facial Recognition to Police, Critics See Surveillance Risk

#95
post #76

They are NOT selling a service that identifies people from data sets other than the police's supplied data sets. It is not inappropriate for police to be able to determine who they are interacting with if that person is a known criminal. The cat is out of the bag and is already something the police could do themselves. The real fear is when they are able to source commercially available information from linked in, fa…

> It is not inappropriate for police to be able to determine who they are interacting with if that person is a known criminal. Everyone is a criminal. You commit multiple crimes a day if you're like most people. There absolutely should be a clear delineation between what is possible and what is allowed when considering state surveillance. The 4th amendment: "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, hous…

Reasonable people can disagree on the definition of "unreasonable," however.

Is it "unreasonable" for the Amber Alert system to co-opt the eyes and attention of ten thousand citizens around a kidnapped child? Hard to say. Most people seem to think 'no.'

If that system could co-opt camera feeds instead of human attention, we could get most (all?) of the benefits of the existing Amber Alert without having to burn civilian resources on it. Wouldn't that be a strict improvement over the current system?

Re: Amazon Pushes Facial Recognition to Police, Critics See Surveillance Risk

#96
post #76

They are NOT selling a service that identifies people from data sets other than the police's supplied data sets. It is not inappropriate for police to be able to determine who they are interacting with if that person is a known criminal. The cat is out of the bag and is already something the police could do themselves. The real fear is when they are able to source commercially available information from linked in, fa…

[deleted]

Re: Amazon Pushes Facial Recognition to Police, Critics See Surveillance Risk

#97
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you expand on "literally everyone is worse off", and I'll assume you meant literally in the colloquial sense, as an emphasis. OP gave an example where he was better off. Do you mean that the trade-off is not worth risk/down side?

[deleted]

Re: Amazon Pushes Facial Recognition to Police, Critics See Surveillance Risk

#98
post #76

They are NOT selling a service that identifies people from data sets other than the police's supplied data sets. It is not inappropriate for police to be able to determine who they are interacting with if that person is a known criminal. The cat is out of the bag and is already something the police could do themselves. The real fear is when they are able to source commercially available information from linked in, fa…

This was the purported intention of cellphone location tracking data. Instead it has been sold to marketers and data aggregators, and so poorly secured that likely for over a year it's been possible to get location data via phone number as a service.

Companies and governments have demonstrated that they are not sufficiently responsible to have these databases. HIPAA-like laws and severe criminal penalties would be a start.

Re: Amazon Pushes Facial Recognition to Police, Critics See Surveillance Risk

#99
post #9
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There are way too few safeguards in the system and the Bill of Rights does not seem to be adequate in dealing with the new reality that private companies can acquire a vast amount of information on us and thereby sell it to law enforcement. Law enforcement can use privately obtained information without a search warrant [1]. Ultimately what the Bill of Rights means is determined by the Supreme Court. It could limit…

We could rely on the Supreme Court but I'm skeptical that they will put the public interest above the government's interests. I think a new Bill of Rights will be needed if there is sufficient outcry over abuses.

I'm not so sure: the Wikipedia article quotes Justice Sotomayor:

> "More fundamentally, it may be necessary to reconsider the premise that an individual has no reasonable expectation of privacy in information voluntarily disclosed to third parties. This approach is ill suited to the digital age, in which people reveal a great deal of information about themselves to third parties in the course of carrying out mundane tasks."

Gorsuch may also be on board:

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudenc...

> [Gorsuch] appeared eager to apply originalist principles to contemporary technology in a way that shields cellphone users from law enforcement overreach. Indeed, Gorsuch seems poised to build upon the jurisprudence of his predecessor, Justice Antonin Scalia, to establish real constitutional limits on the government’s ability to track our movements through our mobile devices.

Re: Amazon Pushes Facial Recognition to Police, Critics See Surveillance Risk

#100
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you expand on "literally everyone is worse off", and I'll assume you meant literally in the colloquial sense, as an emphasis. OP gave an example where he was better off. Do you mean that the trade-off is not worth risk/down side?

Only if you consider privacy as a means to an end rather than a goal by itself. Facial recognition has a negative effect on literally everyone's privacy.

Privacy is a means to an end.

That end is peace-of-mind.

People who have been damaged by random acts of crime may very well find more peace-of-mind sacrificing a bit of privacy to not have those acts repeated on their persons.

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