Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Not sure what the actual target customer base is The target customer is someone who doesn't want to be spied on by IME, PSP, or TrustZone, but totally trusts IBM not to collude with FVEY :)
Is it unreasonable to generally distrust all of the big companies from the USA when it comes to security-sensitive components like for example networking and CPU?
Talos II Lite
31–40 of 45 posts
Re: Talos II Lite
#32Ignore the 4-core and 8-core options. But they seem to exist as a potential cheap option to draw in some eyes (maybe??). But they're not worth it IMO.
But the 18-core Power9 intrigues me and seems very well priced. Threadripper 1950x is 16-cores / quad-memory channel for $900 (sometimes $699), but is way "smaller" than Power9 18-core / 72 threads. And holy moly, is that 10MB L3 cache per pair of chips??
So really, the 18-core Power9 compares favorably to the 24-core / 48-thread 7401P EPYC (8-channel RAM / 64 PCIe lanes).
Intel's 14-core i9-7940x is straight up inferior (similar to Threadripper). 4x channel RAM and way smaller core-counts. Xeon Gold 6150 is comparable but is lol-wut $3200 per chip.
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If we're looking at a system of total-costs of ~$5k to ~$10k (depending on RAM / SSDs), then Power9 Talos II Lite actually looks like an extremely good option.
Only AMD's EPYC 7401p has similar price/performance, but the Power9 is a better designed chip with regards to inter-process communication and highly-threaded tasks. EPYC 7401p is a quad-NUMA design on a single socket, with relatively slow interprocess threads.
EPYC 7401p is great for lots of "server-like" tasks: web server, render farms, compile-box, and the like. But Power9's superior thread-communication architecture means you get both high-cores and high-interprocess communication. No infinity fabric or NUMA nodes slowing you down.
This seems like an incredibly good deal in my book. At least, if I was in the market for $5000 to $10,000 computers. If you're running a singular big application that needs superior inter-process communications, only Power9 or Xeon's mesh will do. Xeon is 3x more expensive, while EPYC has those infinity fabric slowdown issue (although EPYC is still cheaper).
EDIT: I double-checked the Power9 architecture and it seems like its very similar to AMD's Zen design. There are 2-cores per unit, and those cores share a 10MB L3 cache (instead of AMD's 4-cores per CCX sharing 2MB L3 cache). So I guess my assertion about "superior threading" requires more discussion (Afterall, IBM's "internal fabric" looks very similar to AMD's infinity fabric)
EDIT: Power's architecture / ISA has one advantage: and that is it has a looser interpretation of "cache coherency" than AMD / Intel. So the caches are more free to operate more independently. Optimal Power9 coding under this "looser" definition requires mastery of C / C++'s memory_order_consume mechanics (lol @ all 5 people in the world who know how to use those). But Acquire / Release semantics will still be faster on Power9 than on Intel/AMD, due to the looser definition of "cache coherency" on Power9 systems.
So I'd imagine (although this assumption is untested), that Power9 has superior multithreaded performance. Assuming proper use of relaxed / acquire / release / consume mechanics, which can speed up inter-thread communications on Power9 systems.
Of course, if you have bad programmers who use "global locks" or whatever, Power9 communications would not be able to operate very quickly under those circumstances. You'd likely need to really take advantage of those memory-consistency flags in C++.
Re: Talos II Lite
#33Earlier quoted context omitted.
Is it unreasonable to generally distrust all of the big companies from the USA when it comes to security-sensitive components like for example networking and CPU?
Why limit it to the USA? If anything the USA has the least misbehaven government among the nations where high performance chips are manufactured. I don't trust 'em wholesale, but I certainly don't trust the China any more, nor Russia, nor even Korea, Taiwan, or Japan (which I am partial to).
Threat modeling always considers the force your adversary is capable of bringing to bear against you.
If you are a US citizen, residing in the US, then the US is far more capable of capturing and throwing you into a 6'x6' steel box than the government of Russia or China.
Russia and China may very well be worse actors than FVEY, but if they can't actually get at you, then it's best to worry about who can.
Re: Talos II Lite
#34Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Not sure what the actual target customer base is The target customer is someone who doesn't want to be spied on by IME, PSP, or TrustZone, but totally trusts IBM not to collude with FVEY :)
If the firmware is open source, backdoors can only be present in the CPU itself. That is a posibility, however with Intel backdoors can be in so many more places, plus in the CPU itself. Sounds like an improvement?
Re: Talos II Lite
#352018, the year of AIX on the desktop :)
Re: Talos II Lite
#36newbie to Power 9 here. i'm just wondering what one can do with this type of machine better than an intel. i presently have the dell precision with up to 2 procs (currently have 1), am planning to gain more insight into machine learning. TIA
The BIG advantage to Power9 is the massive L3 cache. Utterly, utterly huge. The 18-core Power9 chip has 90MB of L3 for example. With 8x RAM channels at only $1300. With 4xSMT, that's 72-threads.
Compare to Intel's Xeon Gold 6150 $3000 chip, which only has 24.75 MB of RAM and only 6x RAM channels. Intel only supports 2xSMT for 36-threads.
Re: Talos II Lite
#37Earlier quoted context omitted.
If the firmware is open source, backdoors can only be present in the CPU itself. That is a posibility, however with Intel backdoors can be in so many more places, plus in the CPU itself. Sounds like an improvement?
Assuming people are actually auditing the open source firmware.
Re: Talos II Lite
#38Issues with the EULA aside, this could virtualize at full speed Mac OS 9 and OSX/ppc vms, isn't that correct? Power 9 is a superset of the earlier ISA.
Re: Talos II Lite
#39My biggest complain is that it looks too much like a PC by default. I remember the distinctive looks of the beige-and-purple Sun and always colorful SGI boxes. But I totally understand why one would no go for a custom case when they are trying to make it less expensive. Heck... I may get one.
You probably can't buy one from Dell or HP like that but look at the custom PC builder stuff.