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CBS “60 Minutes” piece on Google’s abuse of dominance

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Re: CBS “60 Minutes” piece on Google’s abuse of dominance

#71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What?! How does that work? How does Google “host” searches? 70% of searches go to Google because 70% of people type in “google”. The other 30% open IE/Edge and use Bing to search for google. Are you suggesting that when someone types in “google.com” it redirect them?

The vast majority of browsers are still defaulting to Google, you used almost the only example (IE/Edge) which does not do that.

Microsoft could easily outbid Google to be the primary search engine on iOS and they could pay carriers to make Bing the primary search engines on the Android phones they sell.

Re: CBS “60 Minutes” piece on Google’s abuse of dominance

#72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yelp has been horrible since day one. If google has or has not abused its position Yelp is not the standard we would use to determine that.

This makes no sense. Yelp could be the worst company ever created, but if they had market share and Google worked to seize that market with unfair practices, that counts as abuse of dominant position. There is a dangerous conflation of two very distinct categories in your line of thought.

If think the point being made is Amazon didn't suffer the same fate as Yelp wrt to book reviews because Amazon had a better product than whatever Google produced.

Re: CBS “60 Minutes” piece on Google’s abuse of dominance

#73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yelp has been horrible since day one. If google has or has not abused its position Yelp is not the standard we would use to determine that.

This makes no sense. Yelp could be the worst company ever created, but if they had market share and Google worked to seize that market with unfair practices, that counts as abuse of dominant position. There is a dangerous conflation of two very distinct categories in your line of thought.

> seize that market with unfair practices

Please describe what you consider a fair practice to seize a market in general terms.

Re: CBS “60 Minutes” piece on Google’s abuse of dominance

#74

Yelp is crying sour grapes here. There are so many ways they could have innovated to stay relevant but has anything changed in years there? They could have hired professional reviewers. Yelp reviews are notoriously bad. They could have let you choose what you prefer, example (quality vs quantity) and given you custom ratings or only included reviews from people that share similar tastes. Following up on the last idea…

Google reviews are also pretty horrific as well. Completely untamed and unprofessional, by people that don't know anything about the subject.

This is completely Anecdotal, but, as a foodie, I find the Google reviews have a higher aggregate "crowd wisdom" than Yelp. I am constantly shocked by the lack of correlation between rating and quality in the restaurants I look up on yelp.

Before it died, UrbanSpoon was better than Yelp too.

TripAdvisor is the worst because it's 99% tourists, so you never get a local's opinion of what's good in their area.

Just my 2 cents.

Re: CBS “60 Minutes” piece on Google’s abuse of dominance

#75
In the US, Yelp was the go-to for reviews.

But that's not the case in other markets. Travel to Australia, and you'll find that basically the only reviews are from Americans. All the Australians use Google.

Which makes Yelp in Australia GREAT for Americans. A feature I wish they would build out officially. I like seeing how other people like me rate things. When someone says, "The pizza ain't like home." I know to trust that person if they're from NY. Or, how the Texans ranked local brisket, how people who spoke German rated the schnitzel, or how people from states that grow apples rank apple pie. A million other examples. Profoundly useful for finding good reviews.

Anyway neither Google or Yelp offer this feature, and it seems so fundamentally easy to build out. Just aggregate reviews by reviewer meta-data, no? Or something as simple as, "Show me where people who rated this place a 5 also ate." Mix in "check-ins" (and tie those to discount tiers, since Yelp can) and you can start seeing, "Show me places where people rate 5, and actually return regularly..." This stuff makes for powerful reviews. You don't need first names, you don't need to worry about fake reviewers... they have my credit card linked to them, and if that serves as a reward system... anyway Google and Yelp are both missing the boat on a lot of this stuff.

I really despise how they both make me use a "real" name now. No way I want friends and family seeing what I write. If a place sucks, I want to be free to trash it without fear of someone saying, "Hey {person with a fairly unique first name who is fairly well-known in a relatively small community}, why did you trash my pizza?" or, "Hey Mr. Regular, why haven't you written me a review yet?" or, "Hey Grandson, I see that you're reviewing the same BDSM shop your grandfather and I love!" Ha. Having real IDs on the web... creepy as fuck.

Re: CBS “60 Minutes” piece on Google’s abuse of dominance

#77

Yelp is crying sour grapes here. There are so many ways they could have innovated to stay relevant but has anything changed in years there? They could have hired professional reviewers. Yelp reviews are notoriously bad. They could have let you choose what you prefer, example (quality vs quantity) and given you custom ratings or only included reviews from people that share similar tastes. Following up on the last idea…

You might be right, but a company’s abuse of dominant position isn’t defined by the quality of their competitor’s offer.

You are right, at least in the traditional anti-trust-ish legal sense as I understand it.

In a wider more pedestrian sense, there is a some kettle-pot-black involved here, at least in my opinion.

Yelp's a little monopolistic middle man. Everyone reads and writes reviews on Yelp because everyone reads and writes reviews on Yelp. Market dominance today is the main ingredient for dominance tomorrow. Everyone uses Google search, maps, phones etc. Google gets all the data & ad revenue. They use this to maintain their dominance.

Pick your euphemism for this position: momentum, network effects, buffet's moat, thiel's-monopoly, dominance, viral feedback loops.... Whatever you call it, a restaurant can't opt out of yelp, just like a website can't opt out of google. Their rules are the rules. There is no option B.

A downstream company can be harmed when Google competes direct (AKA the terror of 2006), when they redirect traffic to alternative web pages or disrupts market dominance downstream, intentionally or otherwise.

This is like Yelp's relationship with restaurants. Yelp can stop sending a restaurant customers. Google can stop sending Yelp users. There are no "market dynamics," no "invisible hands," price signals or whatnot. There is no "market" to impose discipline in the way the laissez-faire idealization does on paper.

So... I'm kind of torn. I want to see far more complaints, cases & legislation targeting market dominance, size and monopoly. On the other hand, the hypocrisy...

Re: CBS “60 Minutes” piece on Google’s abuse of dominance

#78
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's pretty obvious Google has moved against the best interests of consumers, by their own admission. They now insert ads into the top of the search flow, commingling results and ads, something their founders correctly proclaimed in the early days to be fundamentally anti user experience. When faced with mobile (and no right side area to allocate ads), they chose to violate their earliest of principles and decided th…

> hey now insert ads into the top of the search flow, commingling results and ad Google has done this as long as I can recall - the top few results are always “sponsored”. Yelp also does this, by placing a star on your map instead of a rating.

Google was created to build an open search engine that doesn't rely on ad revenue.

Literally, that's what the original paper says:

http://infolab.stanford.edu/~backrub/google.html

Re: CBS “60 Minutes” piece on Google’s abuse of dominance

#80
I have run several local marketplaces and what Google is doing to local search is so anti-competitive that many people have decided not to start new local marketplaces. You can Imagine what that does to innovation. In the medium term it will hurt Google. It takes years to build trust and it erodes slowly over time until one day it's gone.
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