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If Haskell is so great, why hasn't it taken over the world? (2017)

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Re: If Haskell is so great, why hasn't it taken over the world? (2017)

#81
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Unless your boss or your boss’s boss are technical and opinionated about good software engineering And if they don't care about ever making money off of your work. But most of us aren't doing [academic] research. Technically correct is the worst kind of correct when your company runs out of money/revenue.

Since when does "good software engineering" mean that you won't make any money?

Since the bar in that comment was set at "the perfect tools to design outstanding solutions to problems"

Ain't a lot of people got time and money for perfect and outstanding.

Re: If Haskell is so great, why hasn't it taken over the world? (2017)

#82
Simple: The productivity boost is not worth the time investment.

Which will give developers a better return on productivity?

200 hours spent learning Haskell or 200 hours spent learning more about the business domain they work in?

200 hours spent learning Haskell or 200 hours spent improving their soft skills?

200 hours spent learning Haskell or 200 hours spent networking?

Etc.

Re: If Haskell is so great, why hasn't it taken over the world? (2017)

#83

Haskell is a young language, and the vast majority (99%+) of programmers have not learned functional programming. Another observation is that the programming industry does not care about correctness or writing stable software, since they have no liability for broken shit. There isn’t a strong push for writing consumer software that isn’t riddled with bugs.

Some devs prefer being woken up on their on-call duty to fix a Javascript bug that could've been caught by GHC. It only makes sense when you put on the business hat, e.g. the big pro is that they are first to market, etc.

Re: If Haskell is so great, why hasn't it taken over the world? (2017)

#84

Part of this is that Haskell is seen as a language by and for academics. You can't even read about the history of Haskell because it is only published through the ACM for a steep fee. So unless you are part of the academic circle you won't be exposed to it unless you are ready to invest. The biggest growth driver for Haskell is the financial world where it has seen quite a bit of adoption.

Which finance companies have even >10k line Haskell codebases

Barclays, Standard Chartered, Tsuru Capital, Alpha Heavy Industries (not sure if they're still going), Karamaan Group

Re: If Haskell is so great, why hasn't it taken over the world? (2017)

#86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good rant and thanks for the example. Seriously, is this really Haskell: $ $%%^^^ a b (@@@ c d) $$$ e f What does it do?

i made that up but absolutely you can make this a thing in haskell because of operator overloading

You can make completely unreadable code in most languages- in none of them, except esolangs like BF, would something like that be best practice... That seems a bit unfair...

Re: If Haskell is so great, why hasn't it taken over the world? (2017)

#87
> I would not be surprised if Haskell were 100x better than Java for writing compilers.

The author sounds like someone who has glimpsed at the truth, but is only willing to take miniscule baby-steps away from their mistaken position.

Think about what it means to say Haskell is 100x better than Java for writing compilers. If you really believe this, quit your job and spend a year writing a Graal competitor in Haskell. You'd own the market for Java, Python, Ruby, Perl. You'd have built your own LLVM JIT. Literally every week you spend in Haskell is two man years of Java programming!

Of course this is nonsense. There is perhaps a 10x difference between Haskell and x86 assembly. I'd doubt it, but it's at least plausible. But compared to C? If Haskell really was some blessing from the gods, you'd actually know of more than a handful of random compilers written in Haskell. Like what actually is there, GHC and Elm? How is that a shining array of successes?

To stick to your guns and say, well, abstract composability is super important but maybe it breaks down around IO, is just not supported by anything approaching evidence. Yes, C++ causes LLVM issues, but writing LLVM isn't hard because of C++! The difficulty of a problem is not total_difficulty / language_expressiveness. It doesn't matter a damn how expressive your implementation language is when every step forward is a research project.

There's a dangerous mythology in programming that we can fix all the complexities of programming by piling on ever more contrived tooling. All I've seen this lead to is an inability to remember that you're actually programming to solve problems. Maybe you solve all the really easy problems with a different choice of language, but the really easy programs don't matter. To end with a Torvalds quote on Rust, but that applies just as well here,

> To anyone who wants to build their own kernel from scratch, I can just wish them luck. It's a huge project, and I don't think you actually solve any of the really hard kernel problems with your choice of programming language. The big problems tend to be about hardware support (all those drivers, all the odd details about different platforms, all the subtleties in memory management and resource accounting), and anybody who thinks that the choice of language simplifies those things a lot is likely to be very disappointed.

Re: If Haskell is so great, why hasn't it taken over the world? (2017)

#88
Let's look at an audience where Haskell (or FP in general) ought to be popular, if any of the hype is true: mathematicians and logicians writing pseudo-code in research papers.

What we see is that pseudocode is almost always imperative. Sometimes it even uses GOTO!

Re: If Haskell is so great, why hasn't it taken over the world? (2017)

#89

Because the industry isn’t dominated by well thought out solutions. Most programmers I talk to love the idea of spending time and using the perfect tools to design outstanding solutions to problems. They discuss how much they supposedly like to learn. But when push comes to shove, your 9–5 career growth is probably going to be best optimized by cobbling a bunch of Python together and shipping it. Especially if you wr…

Ironically, here is a Haskell course taught at UPenn, an Ivy league school.

http://www.seas.upenn.edu/~cis194/fall16/index.html

Re: If Haskell is so great, why hasn't it taken over the world? (2017)

#90
post #58
post #55

My two cents: because, more often than not, worse is better. And, recognizing that worse often wins, maybe we should consider the possibility that what we were categorizing as worse, was actually solving a different, more concrete problem.

Your last point is really key: programmers love to decide that one or two favorite features are game changers but no real-world decision should be that simple. I’ve seen people dismiss Python’s readability as a simple feature which anyone could copy but then decline to do so because they didn’t really respect that as a goal (“it’s just for newbies”, etc.), despite the mountain of evidence showing that it deserves mor…

(Oh, and since I left it out earlier: I’ve loved seeing the Rust team take usability issues so carefully. That’s a great model for the field.)
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