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Getting 1Password 7 ready for the Mac App Store

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Re: Getting 1Password 7 ready for the Mac App Store

#241

Post by CountSessine »

chrischen wrote: post #233
CountSessine wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You need software companies to provide you with security updates for their products. Insisting that you won’t pay for security updates without new features or that security updates should be offered gratis won’t lead to quality software - it just leads to feature bloat. Attaching a separate price to security updates aligns your needs with a software company’s incentives. Why is that a bad thing in your view?

If you are paying for a subscription there isn’t necessarily an incentive to provide security updates even more, since they have the functionality of your app hostage if you decide to cancel and the automatic monthly billing has no ties to the quantity or wuality of updates they push out. That being said, security updates shouldbe part of the price you already paid, since a security flaw is a flaw in their original s…

That being said, security updates shouldbe part of the price you already paid, since a security flaw is a flaw in their original software.

Security vulnerabilities generally aren’t considers latent defects under warranty laws (at least not in NA). I’m not sure what the tech world would look like if it were - for one thing, software teams would probably need a P.Eng. on their teams to ship. For another, using open source software would be even harder to do without an intermediary like Red Hat who would be willing to accept tort liability.

At any rate, your software vendor has no legal responsibility to provide you with security updates. Maybe they should. But you’ll pay for that anyways. How do you want to amortize those security updates? By paying the dividend discount price of the updates up front and risk having the product abandoned in a few years (cheating you out of your ‘dividend’), or by paying directly through a subscription?

If you are paying for a subscription there isn’t necessarily an incentive to provide security updates even more, since they have the functionality of your app hostage if you decide to cancel and the automatic monthly billing has no ties to the quantity or wuality of updates they push out.

That makes no sense - you have it completely backwards. Their incentive to provide me with timely security updates is my continued subscription fees. On the other hand, if you pay the dividend discount price for those security updates up front, they have every incentive to stop releasing updates and cheat you out of your update ‘dividend’.

Re: Getting 1Password 7 ready for the Mac App Store

#242

Post by twblalock »

tgb wrote: post #109

Can I use this space to ask how people actually use password managers on mobile? I got LastPass recently and put on it a good secure "correct horse battery staple"-type password. So now when I use accounts on my phone I have to type that password instead of my short, randomly generated, reused-all-the-time password. This means I'm more secure (no password reuse) but typing 30ish characters without error into my phone…

I use 1Password with Face ID on my iPhone, Touch ID on my iPad, and Touch ID on my Macbook Pro. The only time I have to type in my master password is when I use my Windows desktop at home.

I used to use LastPass and frankly it's far behind 1Password in user experience, especially on Apple devices.

Re: Getting 1Password 7 ready for the Mac App Store

#243

Post by kobayashi »

shinratdr wrote: post #188
kobayashi wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you sure they’ve killed WLAN sync??

They’ve announced it will not be built into the Windows client as they would have to rewrite it for the new codebase. It’s still available for the Mac client, but they’ve essentially said they won’t be supporting it in the future.

How far into the future? 1Password 8?

Re: Getting 1Password 7 ready for the Mac App Store

#244

Post by pktgen »

nsgi wrote: post #226
chrischen wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People updated software before they started using subscription models. Paying for software meant they had to make more compelling updates.

For something like a password manager, the most compelling updates are security fixes, but there are several problems with charging for these: - It's unreasonable to expect people to pay the full price for minor security fixes that still need to go out - Because security upgrades are invisible to the user, it may be harder for the customer to see their value v. new features - The timeline of when security updates nee…

> - It's unreasonable to expect people to pay the full price for minor security fixes that still need to go out

The ideal model for locally-run software, in my opinion, is to sell perpetual licenses to each major version for a one-time cost and promise security and maintenance updates for a certain period. New features can go into new major versions that users have to pay for (sometimes with discounted upgrade pricing), or, on a discretionary basis, as free updates.

This used to be the typical business model for locally-run software. Microsoft, for example, sold Windows versions for a one-time cost, promised security and some other level of updates until a certain year (and new features could be added on a discretionary basis), and provided upgrade pricing for new major versions that added new features. This kept control in users' hands, as their paid-for software could be used forever (at least until and unless external factors, like hardware incompatibilities, prevented it from working), though of course it would be very dumb to use, say, XP today on an Internet-connected machine. I am generally against subscription models for local software where there is no legitimate reliance on an outside service, and also against the trend of trying to create such a reliance for no legitimate reason ("We've added cloud sync and that's what the subscription is for. Servers cost money every month, which is why we're charging you every month." - except I can handle my own file storage and don't want your sync service).

Re: Getting 1Password 7 ready for the Mac App Store

#245

Post by nodamage »

Casseres wrote: post #90
dingo_bat wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you want perpetual free updates? I think your expectations might be a tad unrealistic.

It should be built into the initial price. And perpetual is unrealistic, but 10 years is not. Microsoft provides 5 years of Mainstream Support and 5 years of Extended Support at no additional cost (cost is built into the initial license fee). Heck, I would more trust software that says 10 years of garunteed support rather than lifetime support. Too many companies fudge the meaning of "lifetime", and 10 years blows Go…

But Windows support is limited to security and bug fixes, not feature updates. Not quite the same thing as getting a free upgrade to every major version of an application.

Re: Getting 1Password 7 ready for the Mac App Store

#246

Post by roustem »

0culus wrote: post #82

Although it's been said that they will continue supporting licenses through their website, they have made this feature _extremely_ difficult to find ever since introducing subscriptions. I've been a loyal user of 1Password for a long time, and I think it's great software. I use it on both my Macs, as well as on my iOS devices. However, hiding the non-subscription feature is silly. I do not wish to add yet another sub…

Most of the HN users reading this thread do understand the difference between licenses and subscriptions. It may seem strange but this is not the case for the vast majority of the users. We have customers emailing us about having a 1Password account/subscription since before 2015 (when we only had licenses).

We originally started with offering both licenses and subscription as equal options. Here is how it looked: https://web.archive.org/web/20160420141241/https://1password...

There was a lot of confusion with this design because people simply had no idea what to choose. It is ridiculous but we had many hundreds of customers purchasing both.

The subscription is a better option for most of our users because it takes care of so many things:

- no need to purchase separately on every platform

- no need to learn the difference between iCloud and Dropbox sync, and why sharing is not possible with iCloud option

- no need to learn how to set up a shared Dropbox folder

- no need to worry about backups when your computer or phone dies

- and more

Many of our long-time customers still use licenses and are happy with the existing setup and we want to keep them happy. This is the main reason we keep the licenses going and releasing new version for Mac and Windows support for licenses and standalone vaults.

Re: Getting 1Password 7 ready for the Mac App Store

#247

Post by nodamage »

scarface74 wrote: post #220
stirner wrote: post #174

The Mac App Store makes it impossible to charge for software customers have already paid for? Tragic.

Not impossible, hackish . You can emulate upgrade pricing via bundles. If you sold V1 for $5.00 and then you want to sell V2 to new customers for $5.00 but existing customers. You can bundle the two versions for $8.00 and in the description for V1 you tell them that version 2 is available and don't buy it. You tell customers that have bought V1 already to get the bundle for $3.

I thought bundles were only available on iOS, not Mac?

Re: Getting 1Password 7 ready for the Mac App Store

#248

Post by pktgen »

Mister_Snuggles wrote: post #198
pfranz wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like that model, too, but at least for something like 1Password I can see two issues. You'll have people using older versions with possible security vulnerabilities. If you're using hosted passwords you have to deal with dealing with multiple versions of the client indefinitely (although, you'll probably have to deal with a bit of that anyway)

When you include the hosting service, having a subscription (since you're providing an ongoing service) makes perfect sense. In this case, so does also forcing the current version.

I agree that subscriptions make perfect sense for services (because servers, support, etc. cost money on a monthly basis), but the trend seems to be to create an arbitrary reliance on a hosted service as a way to justify subscriptions. Luckily 1Password hasn't totally gone that way yet, since they still offer standalone licenses for local vaults, but I feel like it's the direction they're going.

Re: Getting 1Password 7 ready for the Mac App Store

#249

Post by Groxx »

microtonal wrote: post #83
cygned wrote: post #26

I really like 1Password, it has been my daily driver for years. The creators gifted me versions for macOS and iOS years ago, so I never had to pay for it - which I would have done happily and, in fact, just recently did. But the push to the cloud versions gives me headache. I don’t want to sync using their cloud - I actually sync using a WiFi server. While it’s (still) possible to obtain the standalone versions, it’s…

But the push to the cloud versions gives me headache. I don’t want to sync using their cloud - I actually sync using a WiFi server. But it has nice benefits as well, they have a Chrome/Firefox extension (1Password X) that goes with their cloud that works on Linux. Understandably, it would be harder for them to offer this on top of Dropbox or Wifi sync.

There's no requirement whatsoever that 1Password X be exclusive to a privately-run cloud. Easier to build, possibly (though since it includes the difficulty of building the cloud service in the first place... oh hell no, 100x harder), but it could work just as well with manual syncing (point to a url -> download the backup, or just give it the file).

Re: Getting 1Password 7 ready for the Mac App Store

#250

Post by s73v3r_ »

PakG1 wrote: post #33

With all these subscription-only apps that are proliferating, I am curious how many enterprising app developers would be interested in making and marketing "cloudless" apps that rely on up-front high prices for revenue, but neverending free updates (mostly bug fixes, I would hope). With GDPR, this seems like it would be actually be easier to deliver. Of course growth numbers may suck, given how hard it is to make it…

" I am curious how many enterprising app developers would be interested in making and marketing "cloudless" apps that rely on up-front high prices for revenue, but neverending free updates (mostly bug fixes, I would hope). "

One of the biggest reasons that subscriptions are proliferating is because it's really hard to make money with the old model. People don't want to pay large up front prices.

"As far as I can tell, if you're not going to do subscription, there's no way to force users to pay to upgrade to a new version (new features) in the Apple App Store, not sure about Google Play."

You can put a V2 in the store, and stop updating the V1. It's a terrible solution, but it's as good as it's gonna get.

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