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Tildes – A non-profit community site driven by its users' interests

blog.tildes.net

41–50 of 104 posts

Re: Tildes – A non-profit community site driven by its users' interests

#41
post #18

It's been fascinating to watch every online environment almost inevitably turn to mush over time. Of particular interest to me are Wikipedia and StackOverflow, where the pedantic rule-following, rule-enforcing insider group eventually squeezes all joy and then all productive life from the the system. Actually, I have little hope for Wikipedia's solving the problem, due to their governance model and political structur…

> Of particular interest to me are Wikipedia and StackOverflow, where the pedantic rule-following, rule-enforcing insider group eventually squeezes all joy and then all productive life from the the system.

I can't be the only person that still finds both productivity and joy in StackOverflow and Wikipedia. I've had mixed reactions with the moderator class on those websites, but overall the websites are fantastic.

Re: Tildes – A non-profit community site driven by its users' interests

#42
post #9
post #3

Hi HN - I left my job at reddit about a year and a half ago, and a few months later decided to try starting a non-profit and work on building a new site that would be able to address a lot of the issues that I felt were hurting online communities. I've kept it very quiet until recently, but have started telling people about it and inviting them to the alpha over the last couple of weeks. The site's still very minimal…

> imagine a slightly-more-functional HN with separate "groups" for different subjects How do you compare the site to Reddit? Curious since you're pretty much branding it as an alternative to Reddit by disclosing your previous job there.

It's going to have a lot of similarities to reddit - reddit does a lot of things right. However, there are also quite a few mechanics on reddit that are too ingrained now for them to ever be able to change, and some of those really hurt the site's ability to have high-quality content.

So I'm hoping to try and address a lot of those issues with different or adjusted mechanics - finding a voting/ranking system that isn't biased towards "quick entertainment", moderation systems that don't result in communities needing to relocate to new subreddits all the time, and so on.

Re: Tildes – A non-profit community site driven by its users' interests

#43
post #15

Over the years, we've seen reddit increasingly turn into an echo chamber. I've been personally voted down for telling people in a general subreddit that the anger they feel about ${Political Party A} is the same way that the opposition feels about ${Political Party B}. What mechanisms are you planning to implement to, for lack of a better phrase, increase exposure to and improve tolerance of different points of view?…

This is definitely one of the most difficult aspects, and already something that we've had some good discussions about on Tildes. There are some people involved already that have been moderators of some of the really divisive subreddits, and I've also had a lot of conversations over the last year with mods from subreddits that work very hard to promote civil discussions even on controversial topics - places like /r/C…

A very big problem I see, even in "good" communities, is a pattern of well-intentioned people commonly mistaking popular opinions for facts. Of course this is inevitable to some degree when emotional beings are involved, but the part that I think is worrying is that more and more genuinely intelligent people are starting to become undisciplined and let their integrity with respect to the truth slide, because it feels good to stick it to someone who may be an asshole, or you know to hold other beliefs with which you disagree. This behavior isn't illogical either - as they say, perception is reality, and sometimes the ends do justify the means. But in the big picture, the world would be a better place if there was one social site emotion was acceptable, but objective truth trumped everything, and that belief was upheld by admins, who themselves would have to be extremely aware of their own bias.

I will give a hopefully not too controversial example: tax policy.

I'd feel comfortable asserting (while standing in front of God at the entrance to the spirit world, so I must be honest) that well over 50% of people believe that is(!) the "best way" to run a society, for and . The reality though is, it is a matter of opinion, not of fact. And even if it was "objectively provable", that proof only holds under certain circumstances. The optimum policy varies based on the input parameters, which vary over time, but it also assumes we are all optimizing for the same thing!

Or in other words, the correct answer is very often: "it depends". You can see all sorts of people happily agreeing with this principle in their daily lives. How many people would get really, really angry if I said Vanilla is "the best ice cream flavor", or that "saving 25% of your net income is a wise strategy, if you can manage it". But wander into topics such as gender, sexuality, politics, etc and most of these very same people will become very emotional and illogical very, very fast.

If there was a site whose administrators were absolutely hardcore about not violating that principle (asserting that grey is white or black is not allowed, period, with penalty of a temporary or permanent ban), I think it could not only work, but if all the pieces fell together in the right way (with intelligent help and cooperation from admins/mods/users, and maybe even input from a broad spectrum of serious professional psychologists/sociologists/etc), it could change the world. I truly believe that.

EDIT: I'm kind of on the fence about whether this strict rule should be site-wide, or only in certain subforums, I could make an argument either way. I think it's fun to think about.

Also: I fully acknowledge I am one of the assholes I mention above. I'm an "asshole" because I actually believe ridiculously strongly about the importance of truth and logic (but also emotion), and that it matters more than almost anything. Literally millions of people die on a fairly regular basis because humanity can't get it's sh*t together on a handful of problems, most of which (but not all!) really aren't that complicated.

Re: Tildes – A non-profit community site driven by its users' interests

#44
post #25
post #18

It's been fascinating to watch every online environment almost inevitably turn to mush over time. Of particular interest to me are Wikipedia and StackOverflow, where the pedantic rule-following, rule-enforcing insider group eventually squeezes all joy and then all productive life from the the system. Actually, I have little hope for Wikipedia's solving the problem, due to their governance model and political structur…

Thanks to pedantic rules, Wikipedia and StackOverflow are the two most useful sites online right now.

Until you try to correct simple mistakes on Wikipedia a couple of times, and learn that you should just give up, and accept things like broken grammar, repeated sentence fragments, etc.

I believe they are surfing on the strength of past contributions, and very dedicated in-group contributors, not by harnessing the world.

Re: Tildes – A non-profit community site driven by its users' interests

#46
post #26

I find the Technical Goals page particularly interesting and debatable: https://docs.tildes.net/technical-goals Accessibility and i18n aren't mentioned which is unfortunate.

A lot of the docs pages are still very scattered and incomplete, but those are definitely things that I should add. Accessibility is definitely important to me, and luckily a lot of it comes naturally because I'm doing things in a very "old school" way like... actually using semantic, hand-written HTML instead of building it as an SPA that outputs unaccessible div-soup. I've done at least some checking to make sure i…

Thank you for taking the time to write this insightful answer.

I really like your approach to this problem. I like the old-school and open not-for-profit approach. You are in for a tough ride and I look forward to hear more about it.

Re: Tildes – A non-profit community site driven by its users' interests

#47
post #24

Genuinely curious, can you expand on how you will achieve the middle-ground between safe space and hate speech? I would assume you are aware of Voat.co and think everyone would agree they are suffering from the "paradox of intolerance", how can you draw the line without stifling legitimate conversation? For example I can't even post an honest question about the Israel/Palestine conflict on numerous subreddits due to…

I don't know if this is a sentiment others share, but I feel like at some point from 2003-2015 (thinking in terms of 4chan's history) the Internet went from having people who said really crazy shit just being weird people from the Internet to people who said really crazy shit distinctly being far-right and far-left people. Or, they were labeled as such, when in the past, they wouldn't have been.

It's a shift in culture, with an added heap of laziness. We're in a time where people like to compartmentalize people/views/ideas in order to dismiss or demonize, because it's easier to do that than challenging ideas (someone else's or your own).

We went from one identity in the US (American) to putting ourselves and others in boxes (black, white, man, woman, whatever) to the detriment of us all. Identity politics: a curious game... the only winning move is not to play.

Re: Tildes – A non-profit community site driven by its users' interests

#48
post #41
post #18

It's been fascinating to watch every online environment almost inevitably turn to mush over time. Of particular interest to me are Wikipedia and StackOverflow, where the pedantic rule-following, rule-enforcing insider group eventually squeezes all joy and then all productive life from the the system. Actually, I have little hope for Wikipedia's solving the problem, due to their governance model and political structur…

> Of particular interest to me are Wikipedia and StackOverflow, where the pedantic rule-following, rule-enforcing insider group eventually squeezes all joy and then all productive life from the the system. I can't be the only person that still finds both productivity and joy in StackOverflow and Wikipedia. I've had mixed reactions with the moderator class on those websites, but overall the websites are fantastic.

I do too. But it saddens me how often the most enjoyable StackOverflow discussions also contain notices that they're closed for being offtopic, allowed to continue to exist only because grandfathered in, etc.

Re: Tildes – A non-profit community site driven by its users' interests

#50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know if this is a sentiment others share, but I feel like at some point from 2003-2015 (thinking in terms of 4chan's history) the Internet went from having people who said really crazy shit just being weird people from the Internet to people who said really crazy shit distinctly being far-right and far-left people. Or, they were labeled as such, when in the past, they wouldn't have been.

It's a shift in culture, with an added heap of laziness. We're in a time where people like to compartmentalize people/views/ideas in order to dismiss or demonize, because it's easier to do that than challenging ideas (someone else's or your own). We went from one identity in the US (American) to putting ourselves and others in boxes (black, white, man, woman, whatever) to the detriment of us all. Identity politics: a…

> We're in a time where people like to compartmentalize people/views/ideas in order to dismiss or demonize

As opposed to exactly what time in the history of humanity where this was not the case?

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