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The Stuxnet worm may be the most sophisticated software ever written

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Re: The Stuxnet worm may be the most sophisticated software ever written

#211

Post by otakucode »

nathanm412 wrote: post #67
vbsteven wrote: post #39

The scary thing about this is: Stuxnet is one of the "most sophisticated" pieces of malware we have discovered up until now . Who knows what kinds of software are still out there quietly doing their thing in the shadows.

We're quickly heading toward the age of the first Virtual WMD. The implications can be as wide as your imagination, but possibly worse than existing WMDs.

A significant amount of how our society approaches technology issues almost seems like everyone has agreed that they WANT a gigantic catastrophe. Like they want to see an action-movie-scale real life supervillain to emerge who uses technology to severely harm people. I won't be surprised when one nutcase has prison doors flying open, planes falling from the sky, ATMs nationwide spilling into the streets, stock market prices spinning randomly, electrical grids frying themselves and everything attached, all at the same time.

Re: The Stuxnet worm may be the most sophisticated software ever written

#212

Post by ardent_uno »

erkkie wrote: post #192
Cthulhu_ wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The world also became a lot more connected, so we're exposed a lot more to wars and such abroad, and we've matured morally speaking and can see that all wars are unnecessary.

Only in a western welfare bubble. Morality over war is what you can afford having other security needs taken care of.

The western world has developed institutions that give it security. Once those parts of the world ravaged by war do the same, they too will enjoy peace and stability.

Re: The Stuxnet worm may be the most sophisticated software ever written

#213

Post by wepple »

igravious wrote: post #188

1: What is sophisticated for a non-state actor may be semi-trivial for a state actor. Why? State actors demand access to the source code of proprietary software; state actors circumvent laws that bind mere mortals like ourselves. If you own the playing field that which is sophisticated for even the most competent and knowledgeable coders may be semi-trivial for the spooks. 2: In my opinion Stuxnet is an act of war. I…

> State actors demand access to the source code of proprietary software

So, when China or Russia are building windows exploits, they just demand Microsoft hand over source?

Also, the idea that “locked down” Linux would do any better than windows is ridiculous. The Linux codebase is enormous and complex and full of bugs. At least if you’d said some type of high security microkernel, you could put forward forward some logical arguments.

Re: The Stuxnet worm may be the most sophisticated software ever written

#214

Post by vertexFarm »

organicmultiloc wrote: post #130
indescions_2018 wrote: post #113

Stuxnet changed history. Any "game of chicken" style equilibria is broken if the probability a nuclear actor's command and control drops below 100%. If there is even a 1% chance that when a Big Red Button is pushed the missiles fail to launch the game becomes unwinnable. Simulations of imperfect information in dynamic brinkmanship where both players are known to have advanced cyber capabilities results in a single dr…

The problem is not everyone on the world stage is a rational game theory nerd that links to papers like we want them to be. Also 60 years of treating every other country as a box in a threat model to be manipulated against other boxes has been a completely unmitigated disaster, so maybe we should stop that.

For all the evidence we have, MAD has worked. Still here. Still no WWIII. At the beginning of the twentieth century it was looking like we'd have another world war every twenty years or so for the rest of time.

As best we can tell, nukes actually did end large-scale war. I would call that at least a partially mitigated disaster.

Re: The Stuxnet worm may be the most sophisticated software ever written

#215

Post by [deleted] »

ssijak wrote: post #54

And then people make a fuss about Russia "hacking" the election with some dumb Facebook ads which cost less than maxed out Ford Mustang. When on the other hand we have the state-sponsored military grade/purpose viruses used to attack other nations/regions (Flume attacked a large number of targets and countries) and nobody blinks an eye.

[deleted]

Re: The Stuxnet worm may be the most sophisticated software ever written

#216

Post by sodafountan »

vbsteven wrote: post #39

The scary thing about this is: Stuxnet is one of the "most sophisticated" pieces of malware we have discovered up until now . Who knows what kinds of software are still out there quietly doing their thing in the shadows.

Even more interesting and along the same lines of thought, Stuxnet was probably considered a failure in the eyes of its creators. The fact that we're discussing it, analyzing it, and patching its exploits is probably the exact opposite of what its creators wanted for it, even if at a point it did have the desired affects.

But now, everyone's wiser, so the game just got more complex.

Re: The Stuxnet worm may be the most sophisticated software ever written

#217

Post by the_grue »

rbosinger wrote: post #210

A somewhat crazy guy once told me that he worked on Stuxnet. Obviously I didn't believe him. But he did seem to know quite a bit about it. How weird would it be if he wasn't lying. I mean, somebody had to work on this somewhere.

Do you happen to remember what was the crazy guy's nationality?

Re: The Stuxnet worm may be the most sophisticated software ever written

#218

Post by convivialdingo »

wil421 wrote: post #149
stef25 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The hard part was writing the worm and getting it in to the facility, not getting in to Realtek's network. I would bet.

Didn’t the CIA drop USB sticks around the enrichment facility? I read that somewhere trying to find the source.

If I were to guess, probably many different types of media. Music CDs, DVDs disks, usb.

Maybe those types of facilities are 99% focused on keeping data from leaving. But employees were bringing plenty of media to listen to while watching the monitors before stuxnet.

A typical facility would likely scan that incoming media and pass it to you later if it was okay’d. You aren’t allowed to ever take that media out again, however.

I’m just guessing though.

Re: The Stuxnet worm may be the most sophisticated software ever written

#219

Post by vertexFarm »

tmoertel wrote: post #52
fapjacks wrote: post #8

I've been arguing about this for the last three days. Mostly around the reason that "complexity" is not strictly the same thing as "sophistication" when it comes to software. Noobs will conflate the two, but experienced programmers will agree that -- just to illustrate my point -- some code which solves a complex problem in a very clever way while also being very clean and easy to maintain will be considered strictly…

Indeed. I think that the mark of sophistication is not complexity but irreducible complexity. Sophisticated solutions are those that have been reduced to their simplest form.

I'm wondering why do you think this is true? Using stuxnet as an example, would it not be better if they used every feature within reason that would add to the likelihood of success? Why does reductive elegance make an application of technology superior to an inelegant solution? Does final effectiveness not overrule the developer's aesthetics?

I'm asking in honesty, not using the question to merely attack your opinion. I recognize there are things I have probably not considered.

Re: The Stuxnet worm may be the most sophisticated software ever written

#220

Post by cobbzilla »

sodafountan wrote: post #216
vbsteven wrote: post #39

The scary thing about this is: Stuxnet is one of the "most sophisticated" pieces of malware we have discovered up until now . Who knows what kinds of software are still out there quietly doing their thing in the shadows.

Even more interesting and along the same lines of thought, Stuxnet was probably considered a failure in the eyes of its creators. The fact that we're discussing it, analyzing it, and patching its exploits is probably the exact opposite of what its creators wanted for it, even if at a point it did have the desired affects. But now, everyone's wiser, so the game just got more complex.

No, I'm sure whoever created it doesn't consider it a failure.

Its mission was to destroy some expensive industrial centrifuges and set back Iran's nuclear program. And it destroyed some centrifuges precisely as it was designed to. At that point discovery is inevitable, but whatevs because "mission accomplished".

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