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The Angry Rich

nytimes.com

41–50 of 82 posts

Re: The Angry Rich

#41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The disagreement isn't about leaving the world the same or better, almost everyone wants that. The argument is which is the superior method for making the world better. On one side you have Krugman who believes you should tax the rich and let the government spend the wealth the rich accumulated to improve conditions for everyone. On the other side you people who think that if you allow people to spend, save and inves…

Krugman's article actually speaks to this in a roundabout way. He seems to contend that side B has given up the pretense that they are trying to make the world a better place. And I think you've seen some of this in statements from people like the lieutenant governor of South Carolina, when he said, "My grandmother was not a highly educated woman, but she told me as a small child to quit feeding stray animals. You kn…

Yeah, unfortunately you can always find example of people who really are bastards, but the examples come from both sides.

On one hand you have Keynesians who want to screw the rich out of envy and spite and have no concern for the poor, or even worse, actually want to oppress the poor to keep them as their constituents.

On the other hand, you have, like in your example, capitalists who think of the poor as an inferior species to be ignored, or worse, eliminated.

Neither side is immune.

Re: The Angry Rich

#42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You really think this is not a waste of time to read? "It is no more right to take a dollar from a man who has a hundred of them than it is to take a dollar from a man who has one." And given how extraordinary the claim is, there's not a single argument to support it. It seems like the definition of trolling. A well-reasoned argument for why we should either have no taxes or an extremely regressive tax system would b…

There's nothing extraordinary about the claim. I'd be surprised if there was anyone here who hasn't heard the Objectivist idea that the fruits of ones labor are ones own, and no man has the right to take it. It sounds now like what you want is not a reminder that there is a valid and consistent moral theory that supports this idea (just as there are alternate theories that arrive at different conclusions). And to be…

I've also heard of "an eye for an eye", but in a debate about the modern justice system its an absurd position to take.

Likewise, your position that taxation in the US is wrong is an extraordinary claim, even with a pithy saying. Most conservatives would agree that some taxes are necessary.

With that said, there's probably nothing that stops you from buying an island and enjoying all fhe fruits of labor you can create outside of the global economy. If you don't want to enjoy any investment that the state has made (past, present, and future), you can remove yourself from the state.

But you're arguing that in the US any taxes are wrong, period. End of argument. That's an extraordinary claim in my book. And looks exactly like the form that trolling usually takes.

Re: The Angry Rich

#43

I don't think it's any mystery why the rich are angry. Whether it's right or wrong, they see it this way: "I've spent my entire life working to build wealth. I've sacrificed and it's paid off. Now I'd like to use my wealth in the way I see fit. Whether that's spending it, saving it, investing it or giving it away, it should be my decision, not a government planner's decision." Again, right or wrong, that is how the r…

Most of the rich people I have met who are "self-made" don't actually feel that angry. It's the rich people that were born into wealth who are pissed off.

Take Ben Stein for instance. The guy is pissed off. And yet, he was born to a presidential advisor and had quite the head start in life. He'll never see it that way mind you. But I'm pretty sure his own father would disagree with his latest rants. Don't take my word for it, read this:

http://www.progressive-economics.ca/2006/06/09/adam-smith-di...

[T]he people who wear the Adam Smith tie are not doing so to honorliterary genius. They are doing so to make a statement of their devotion to the idea of free markets and limited government. What stands out in WofN, however, is that their patron saint was not pure or doctrinaireabout this idea. He viewed government intervention in the market with great skepticism. He regarded his exposition of the virtues of the free market as his main contribution to policy, and the purpose for which his economic analysis was developed.

Yet he was prepared to accept or propose qualifications to that policy in the specific cases where he judged that their net effect would be beneficial and would not undermine the basically free character of the system. He did not wear the Adam Smith necktie.

These cases were numerous, and some of them are surprising. I give here a list, certainly incomplete, largely derived from Viner’s article on Smith written for the sesquicentennial of the WofN. (The parentheses are mine.)

The government could legitimately do the following:

– Protect the merchant marine and give bounties to defense-related manufacturing industries.

– Impose tariffs on imports in order to bargain for reduction of tariffs by other countries.

– Punish, and take steps to prevent, dishonesty, violence and fraud. (Does this include the SEC, and would prevention of violence justify measures to assist ghetto youth?)

– Establish indicators of quality of goods, such as the sterling mark for silver. (Does this justify the Food and Drug Administration, the Federal Trade Commission and the Consumer Product Safety Commission?)

– Require employers to pay wages in cash rather than in kind. (Could the government conversely require employers to pay part of wages in the form of health benefits?)

– Regulate banking.

– Provide public goods, such as highways, harbors, bridges and canals. (What about railways, airlines?)

– Run the post office. (Also telephone, the information highway?)

– Grant patents and copyrights.

– Give a temporary monopoly to a trading company developing commerce in new and risky regions. (Is this industrial policy, managed trade?)

– Require children to have a certain level of education.

– Provide protection against communicable diseases.

– Require the streets to be kept clean. (Environmentalism?)

– Set a ceiling on interest rates.

– Impose discriminatory taxation to deter improper or luxurious behavior.

Re: The Angry Rich

#44

I don't think it's any mystery why the rich are angry. Whether it's right or wrong, they see it this way: "I've spent my entire life working to build wealth. I've sacrificed and it's paid off. Now I'd like to use my wealth in the way I see fit. Whether that's spending it, saving it, investing it or giving it away, it should be my decision, not a government planner's decision." Again, right or wrong, that is how the r…

I think you're mostly right but not quite all the way there.

These people are basically being told that they've hit their limit. Society has hit it's limit. They have been reaching for the American dream, and by everyone else's standards they've achieved it. But they think, as society's golden children, that they shouldn't have to make any sacrifices on their journey (while asking everyone else to sacrifice to bail them out).

That's really what it is. They're being told they can't have everything, and they are apoplectic about it, and are taking it out on the bearer of that message. It's kind of a sad temper tantrum. Unfortunately it may drag America back into the mire from which Culture Warriors like Sarah Palin and Bill O'Reilly plan their verbal asymmetric warfare.

The really galling part about all of this nonsense (at least when it comes to bankers) is the notion that they weren't complicit in creating the situation that we're in, that requires everyone to cut back. This isn't something that's being done to them. This is a direct result of the consequences that our society chose to do, two wars, massive tax cuts to the wealthy, all deficit spending. This has a good explanation: http://delong.typepad.com/sdj/2010/09/in-which-mr-deling-res...

Re: The Angry Rich

#45
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These claims need citations. And remember, we don't just pay federal income taxes. We also pay state incomes tax (most states), sales tax (most states and locales), property tax, item taxes (like luxury taxes), FICA tax, etc... While I'm sure a LOT of money goes to the military, I'm not sure I believe it is most of it.

Maybe if more Americans knew how much we were spending on war they would be less inclined to support it. "Death and Taxes" is a well-known and clear infographic of government spending: http://www.wallstats.com/deathandtaxes/ It shows military and security spending as 63% of the 2011 budget(895 billion). The discussion here seems mostly about the income tax, so I'm focusing on that. I'm not morally opposed to paying t…

63% of the discretionary budget.

If you look at non-discretionary spending as well, you'll see that it's like.. less than 20% of the money spent.

Re: The Angry Rich

#46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Krugman's article actually speaks to this in a roundabout way. He seems to contend that side B has given up the pretense that they are trying to make the world a better place. And I think you've seen some of this in statements from people like the lieutenant governor of South Carolina, when he said, "My grandmother was not a highly educated woman, but she told me as a small child to quit feeding stray animals. You kn…

Yeah, unfortunately you can always find example of people who really are bastards, but the examples come from both sides. On one hand you have Keynesians who want to screw the rich out of envy and spite and have no concern for the poor, or even worse, actually want to oppress the poor to keep them as their constituents. On the other hand, you have, like in your example, capitalists who think of the poor as an inferio…

But I do think that Krugman's position has some merit. Watch the Sunday morning shows. The argument that cutting taxes for the wealthiest is not about stimulating the economy. It's about doing what is moral for the wealthy. And if you read the comments in the right-leaning blogs, you'll see a LOT, if not the majority of comments being about how these taxes go to the worst in society -- poor, Blacks, Kenyans, communists, illegal immigrants, etc...

I mean think about this. We're talking about an increase of 4% in the marginal tax rate for those making above $250k/year. A rational argument would be to look at the impact of where these tax dollars go versus what the wealthy might do with it. In itself this should be a very innocuous discussion. But look at what we have.

This is not about the best way to make the world a better place. But I do think it is more about "who _deserves_ to have resources".

Re: The Angry Rich

#47
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"earned" is a more complicated concept than you make it out to be. did you "earn" the particular set of aptitudes and interests that made you a "high earner" at this juncture in history? i'm pretty sure you were just lucky in that respect. you mention "or my family before me" - it takes quite a particular set of beliefs to say that you are entitled to what your ancestors earned. what if you inherit tremendous wealth…

I didn't inherit any money. As for my aptitudes and interests, they didn't make me a 'high earner'; they didn't make me a dime. My work to apply them did. I see a lot of that attitude, that because I was born smart is why I have the job I do now. I wasn't born smart. That information didn't start out in my brain. I spent a lot of Saturdays as a kid at the library, reading non-fiction. I spend a lot of time now, readi…

no, i'm not claiming you didn't put effort into exercising those aptitudes. that goes without saying. you were still profoundly lucky in having those aptitudes, in recognizing them, in having the opportunity to exercise effort, and so on.

Re: The Angry Rich

#48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's nothing extraordinary about the claim. I'd be surprised if there was anyone here who hasn't heard the Objectivist idea that the fruits of ones labor are ones own, and no man has the right to take it. It sounds now like what you want is not a reminder that there is a valid and consistent moral theory that supports this idea (just as there are alternate theories that arrive at different conclusions). And to be…

I've also heard of "an eye for an eye", but in a debate about the modern justice system its an absurd position to take. Likewise, your position that taxation in the US is wrong is an extraordinary claim, even with a pithy saying. Most conservatives would agree that some taxes are necessary. With that said, there's probably nothing that stops you from buying an island and enjoying all fhe fruits of labor you can creat…

your position that taxation in the US is wrong is an extraordinary claim

If you scan back up the thread, you'll see that I haven't made any such claim. My statement was that this is a valid moral theory, and can't be dismissed out-of-hand (as you are continuing to do).

That is, I haven't argued in agreement to the poster above, I've just called you (and others) out because you've shouted him down with negative votes, without actually addressing his viewpoint.

Now that I think about it, this just might be the heart of what Krugman was referring to. If people are so dismissive of these concerns, then it should hardly be surprising that others having these values are left angry and frustrated.

Re: The Angry Rich

#49

I don't think it's any mystery why the rich are angry. Whether it's right or wrong, they see it this way: "I've spent my entire life working to build wealth. I've sacrificed and it's paid off. Now I'd like to use my wealth in the way I see fit. Whether that's spending it, saving it, investing it or giving it away, it should be my decision, not a government planner's decision." Again, right or wrong, that is how the r…

>Again, right or wrong, that is how the rich view the situation when they are facing increased taxes and dilution of their wealth through inflation. Whether you agree with it or not, it's not hard to understand.

Statistically, the rich are getting richer. The middle class are the ones who should be angry as they are the demographic who have suffered the most economically in recent decades.

This political cartoon nicely counters the rich's complaints about tax burden:

http://i.imgur.com/zehGy.jpg

I would attribute the recent anger of the rich, and their tea party proxies, more to greed than rational self-interest. I see the present greed as irrational because it creates the potential of political blowback that will likely imperil the greedy in the long term.

Re: The Angry Rich

#50
post #32
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just want to point out that most of the taxes you pay in the US do not go to the upkeep of society you may benefit from (which we can define as schools, police, education, etc). Most of your tax money either goes to propping up a bloated military-industrial complex, maintaining bases overseas, counterterrorism ops, foreign aid to oppressive regimes, etc etc. If you're a pro-tax liberal you're probably against high…

It's true that if I had grown up in the US and not in Sweden, I might be more tax-averse than I ended up being... There is a difference between what you get in practice for paying your taxes in the US and the principle of taxation in general. One of the things that amaze/frustrate me about the US taxes is that noone ever suggests that maybe the military budget could be cut by 50% or so...

Oh, people suggest it often enough, but they're successfully shouted down afterward (which is probably why you haven't really heard of them).
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