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Hundreds of Bitcoin Wannabes Show Hallmarks of Fraud

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Re: Hundreds of Bitcoin Wannabes Show Hallmarks of Fraud

#121

Post by lend000 »

hudon wrote: post #87
lend000 wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I then find it difficult to believe that you cannot think of productive applications of cryptocurrencies. As someone who researches self organizing systems, especially in the network space, I have seen numerous applications of mesh network organization based on a blockchain-like decentralized ledger that adds a new dimension after well over a decade long plateau in development. Semi-centralized blockchains utilizing…

- Can you show me one of these blockchain-based mesh networks in production? How many users do they have? - As for voting and trade records, how do you deal with the fact that developers can fork the chain and invalidate past transactions like they did with Bitcoin in 2010 and 2013, or like they did with Ethereum in 2016? Why do you trust the developers more than your own government? And if you live in an oppressive…

> Can you show me one of these blockchain-based mesh networks in production? How many users do they have?

Why does it need to be in production? The technology is 10 years old, and it has been widely known by researchers for less than half that time. Just trying to find any hole you can pick? This is by a respected researcher who has recently shifted his focus to blockchain with the potential it has for IoT and mesh networks: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/324005919_SENATE_A_...

> As for voting and trade records, how do you deal with the fact that developers can fork the chain and invalidate past transactions like they did with Bitcoin in 2010 and 2013, or like they did with Ethereum in 2016? Why do you trust the developers more than your own government? And if you live in an oppressive regime, what makes you think your government will allow your blockchain to be used for voting?

The credentials you tried showing off made it sound like you would have a good understanding of the various blockchain technologies in play... You should know that proof-of-stake and master nodes allow a semi-centralized network to be created where the transactions are still public and verifiable, but important parties (i.e. the government, in the case of some of the examples I provided) have a significantly stronger influence on the outcomes of the network. Sure, any developers can fork the blockchain or create invalid blocks, but why would you switch your software to use that chain?

> If your government wants transparency, why don't they simply expose a read-only API to their database?

They probably don't want transparency but that's a separate issue. Let's use the example of voting -- an election running on a public blockchain protocol with all of the votes can be verified and summed, and by knowing your private key you can see how your vote was counted without decrypting that vote to anyone else (even the government). With an API and a database, you could authenticate and get the value they stored for how you voted, but obviously it's a violation of privacy to see how everyone else voted so you can't verify the system as a whole. Most prominent example in this space: https://followmyvote.com/online-voting-technology/blockchain...

These are pretty basic examples to be honest and you are allegedly quite involved in the space, so I assume you just don't want it to be true.

Re: Hundreds of Bitcoin Wannabes Show Hallmarks of Fraud

#122

Post by ryanlol »

abalone wrote: post #118
ryanlol wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, that’s the point of chargebacks. Everybody knows this. What is the point you are trying to make? That you’re too dumb to not buy from “random sellers”?

So you think people who get defrauded on the Internet are "dumb". I can see why you like cryptocurrency.

I’ve been scammed on the internet, but %-wise it’s comparable to credit card fees.

Re: Hundreds of Bitcoin Wannabes Show Hallmarks of Fraud

#123

Post by null000 »

fredgrott wrote: post #9

To be fair, How many startups listed on Angel list ar in fact frauds? No, not just illegal stuff like intershipsp for no pay but more major stuff like outright fabrication of founder bios, etc.

Many of us view startup culture in the valley as probably overvalued as well, although maybe not as much as a few years ago.

Re: Hundreds of Bitcoin Wannabes Show Hallmarks of Fraud

#124

Post by root_axis »

One of the most under-appreciated problems regarding the "soundness" of blockchain tokens is that they are trivial to create and so everyone does so. A given blockchain token is only nominally distinct from a potential fork of itself that literally creates blockchain money out of thin air.

The bitcoin-cash fork is a perfect example of how blockchain tokens can be trivially summoned out of the void with identical properties to the parent token which spontaneously "creates value" when the sum total value of the fork and the parent exceeds the value of the parent pre-fork. What this tells us is that blockchain markets are very inefficient and the vast majority of money in the system has near zero understanding of the intrinsic properties that underpin the token's ability to even exist as a thing that can be traded on an exchange. Once the market is saturated with an understanding of how these tokens are actually infinitely abundant and not at all scarce as we know it, we are going to see a catastrophic correction.

Re: Hundreds of Bitcoin Wannabes Show Hallmarks of Fraud

#125

Post by thisisit »

hudon wrote: post #6

- The space is littered with fraud. - Wallets have bugs that lose hundreds of millions of dollars - Energy consumption forecasted to hit 0.5% of the world’s electricity consumption by end of 2018 - Promoters yelling “decentralize everything” while exchanges, development teams and mining are all highly centralized - No legal use case found to date Blockchain is a parasite on society.

Blockchain's only use seems to be in money:

https://medium.com/@jimmysong/why-blockchain-is-hard-60416ea...

In a sense, current conceptions of blockchain are trying to do the impossible. They want the security of a decentralized system with the control of a centralized one. The desire is the best of both worlds, but what they end up getting is the worst of both worlds. You get the costs and difficulty of a decentralized system with the failure modes of a centralized one.

Re: Hundreds of Bitcoin Wannabes Show Hallmarks of Fraud

#126

Post by jaredklewis »

miscreanity wrote: post #26
hudon wrote: post #6

- The space is littered with fraud. - Wallets have bugs that lose hundreds of millions of dollars - Energy consumption forecasted to hit 0.5% of the world’s electricity consumption by end of 2018 - Promoters yelling “decentralize everything” while exchanges, development teams and mining are all highly centralized - No legal use case found to date Blockchain is a parasite on society.

This happens in any field during growth. Blockchain is a tool which you can blame all you want, but will not change the outcome. Blockchain or Distributed Ledger Technology or whatever the name is of late has shown the possibility of standardizing identity, time-stamping and other forms of data with almost no trust involved. These systems are herding cats successfully, the only question is which will be settled upon…

> The greater danger than fraud is when governments and other institutions get involved to use these systems as control and tracking tools. Snowden's revelations showed laughable secrets compared to what will be done with blockchain as infrastructure.

This makes no sense. Why would a surveillance state possibly need or want a blockchain?

Re: Hundreds of Bitcoin Wannabes Show Hallmarks of Fraud

#127

Post by lostmsu »

jaredklewis wrote: post #126
miscreanity wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This happens in any field during growth. Blockchain is a tool which you can blame all you want, but will not change the outcome. Blockchain or Distributed Ledger Technology or whatever the name is of late has shown the possibility of standardizing identity, time-stamping and other forms of data with almost no trust involved. These systems are herding cats successfully, the only question is which will be settled upon…

> The greater danger than fraud is when governments and other institutions get involved to use these systems as control and tracking tools. Snowden's revelations showed laughable secrets compared to what will be done with blockchain as infrastructure. This makes no sense. Why would a surveillance state possibly need or want a blockchain?

He is saying, that fraud on blockchain platforms caused much less damage, than state wide survelliance for instance. But there's no cry to dismantle all government structures because of it.

Not agreeing, just trying to explain that point. IMHO, this is sort of whataboutism.

But I don't agree with the criticism either, for blockchains/Bitcoin so far does not deal measurable damage. Energy consumption is not a danger on it's own.

Re: Hundreds of Bitcoin Wannabes Show Hallmarks of Fraud

#128

Post by wz1000 »

jMyles wrote: post #53
hudon wrote: post #6

- The space is littered with fraud. - Wallets have bugs that lose hundreds of millions of dollars - Energy consumption forecasted to hit 0.5% of the world’s electricity consumption by end of 2018 - Promoters yelling “decentralize everything” while exchanges, development teams and mining are all highly centralized - No legal use case found to date Blockchain is a parasite on society.

> No legal use case found to date Even if this were true, and it's obviously not, what about the illegal use cases? Aren't they important? Bitcoin has helped people gain access to a wide variety of medicines that the state has improperly and violently prohibited. That's not nothing. And if it can do that - if, in the face of such overwhelming opposition, this technology has aided people in need, then doesn't it stand…

> Aren't they important?

They might be, but does enabling you to buy LSD over the internet really justify a $300 billion market cap?

Re: Hundreds of Bitcoin Wannabes Show Hallmarks of Fraud

#129

Post by kristjansson »

lend000 wrote: post #121
hudon wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

- Can you show me one of these blockchain-based mesh networks in production? How many users do they have? - As for voting and trade records, how do you deal with the fact that developers can fork the chain and invalidate past transactions like they did with Bitcoin in 2010 and 2013, or like they did with Ethereum in 2016? Why do you trust the developers more than your own government? And if you live in an oppressive…

> Can you show me one of these blockchain-based mesh networks in production? How many users do they have? Why does it need to be in production? The technology is 10 years old, and it has been widely known by researchers for less than half that time. Just trying to find any hole you can pick? This is by a respected researcher who has recently shifted his focus to blockchain with the potential it has for IoT and mesh n…

The hard problem with voting systems isn’t counting the votes, but insuring that each eligible person casts at most one vote.

Blockchain based voting systems might help prevent the rare case of multiple voting, but AFACT, do nothing to protect an unscrupulous government from stuffing the ballot box with fabricated votes. Ultimately, like the other issues GP raised, the technology seems to do little to solve the underlying social problems.

Re: Hundreds of Bitcoin Wannabes Show Hallmarks of Fraud

#130

Post by jMyles »

wz1000 wrote: post #128
jMyles wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No legal use case found to date Even if this were true, and it's obviously not, what about the illegal use cases? Aren't they important? Bitcoin has helped people gain access to a wide variety of medicines that the state has improperly and violently prohibited. That's not nothing. And if it can do that - if, in the face of such overwhelming opposition, this technology has aided people in need, then doesn't it stand…

> Aren't they important? They might be, but does enabling you to buy LSD over the internet really justify a $300 billion market cap?

To be perfectly honest, I'm inclined to say "yes." And I don't think it's even close.

LSD is one of the most important inventions in the history of humanity. The state has chosen to ban it, which to me seems a little childish. But I mean, I get it. Sure, go ahead, ban it for now.

In the face of such a small-minded prohibition, I might look around for tooling which seems imbued by its nature with a desire to circumvent such a ban. And even if it is scaffolded on hundreds of billions of dollars, it has the hallmark of a sacred origin if it's successful at doing that.

Or maybe not. I don't really know.

But I do feel confident that, in light of such circumvention, it's not quite correct to write it off as "nothing at all," which blockchain skeptics seem wont to do.

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