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College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

nytimes.com

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Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#401

Post by econochoice »

dvtv75 wrote: post #388
aarongough wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't have a degree and honestly have never had any issues with recruiters or interviews for intermediate/senior 'software engineering' positions. I never represent myself as having a degree, but I don't go out of my way to point out my lack of degree either. Never once in an interview have I been asked about my education. One nice thing about software development positions is the interview process tends to be meri…

Before I earned my degree, I had countless interviewers tell me that they wouldn't consider me until I had one, in spite of my "not insignificant" experience and interest in the field. (It was sysadmin at the time.) So I got my degree. Suddenly, the interviewers - some of them the same as before - changed their positions to not considering me in spite of having the qualifications, but because I had no experience. So…

I'm interesting in hearing about your education background, your current field and your general location, if you don't mind sharing.

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#402

Post by fooker »

_jal wrote: post #390
fooker wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It isn't fair to include an opportunity cost in this calculation because yoy wouldn't have most of those opportunities without college.

People don't work or learn without having attended college college?

There exists people who work or learn without having attended college.

However, to include college time in the opportunity cost, it would need to be 'for all', not 'there exists'.

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#403

Post by chillacy »

aianus wrote: post #172
bluedevil2k wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Student loan interest rates should be tied to the major. Engineering major? $0 down, 3.5% interest rate. Art History major? 25% down, 15% interest rate.

It seems like it might be a good business to offer to refinance loans for, say, CS students at top-tier schools at a lower rate than the government loans. Ideally that would raise the default rate of the government loans and push up the interest rates of the arts students. Right now the STEM majors are subsidizing everyone else if the interest rates are the same.

I thought that was a pretty good idea so I looked to see if it was legal and lo and behold: https://www.upstart.com/

A startup exists which refinances loans based on college major and SAT scores

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#405

Post by chillacy »

maxk42 wrote: post #286
projectramo wrote: post #20

Thought experiment: would college be "worth it" if it were free? That is to say, would it be a valuable use of time and effort? I am sure there are people who can study hours of literature, philosophy, political science, math and physics on their own. I am sure they would write papers and find others to discuss them. For the rest of us there is only college. (You might ask: valuable to what end? Worth what? And that…

> would college be "worth it" if it were free? I suspect the answer is "no" more frequently than you may expect. The opportunity cost is four years of your life, four fewer years of full-time work experience, and the income that comes with that work experience. When I was in high school all these recruiters came from various colleges to try and get us to sign up for their schools. I saw what almost none of my peers s…

Out of curiosity, what kind of job were you able to land without a college degree? More and more jobs require a degree, even those that don't seem to need it, just because more and more people are going to college.

Though if you're the type of person who's driven enough to do that cold calling, I'm sure you'd find a way around it.

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#406

Post by chillacy »

toomanybeersies wrote: post #64

Ignoring financial reasons, I think that university is absolutely worth it. It's 3 or 4 years of your life where you've (often) just left home, it's the first time in your life that you're actually free to do what you want. It's an incredible place to learn about yourself and grow, where the consequences of fucking up usually aren't as severe.

> where the consequences of fucking up usually aren't as severe.

Helps to go to a private school, with the grade inflation, advisors who work their magic to keep you from falling off the wagon, generous academic probation, etc.

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#407

Post by chillacy »

zamalek wrote: post #143
bob_theslob646 wrote: post #89

It's simple, try and get the best education you can for as cheap as possible. I have not read the article, so forgive me if they state it there, but a large contributor to the problem of "must go to college" are employers. It's amazing to me that software is the only industry that accepts people for what they can do and have done whereas other industries require explicit requirements. Yes, training can be expensive,…

This is because software development is one of the few industries where you can learn the craft without putting lives at risk. For example, there is a huge step from playing with Lego to building a load (and life) bearing bridge. For some industries, self directed learning is completely inaccessible. Medicine is a good example (you also really wouldn't want to hire based in practical tests for that one, too).

What about the folks who write flight control software? I'm not aware of those jobs requiring applicants to pass the PE exam (there is one for software but it's the least popular):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principles_and_Practice_of_Eng...

Whereas the CivEs overwhelmingly need this certification

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#408

Post by TheCoelacanth »

jcranmer wrote: post #185
jpeg_hero wrote: post #54

How do you know you live in an SF bubble? > A third of Americans aged 25-29 have a bachelors degree I know one persons without a degree. > earn only a bit more than do people with only a high school education: $38,376 a year versus $35,256 At my company an annual raise of less than $25k is seen as an insult.

> At my company an annual raise of less than $25k is seen as an insult. Did you drop a decimal point? A 5% raise would need a salary of $500,000 to hit $25k.

Companies that want to have high retention of employees in hot job markets will give raises of much higher than 5%.

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#409

Post by ghaff »

sanderjd wrote: post #375
ghaff wrote: post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sort of exists. P.E. Software engineering like most of the other engineering branches use. Signing off on designs that require regulatory approval often requires a PE. In my first job in mechanical design etc. it was understood that I would get this as soon as I could. However my understanding is that almost no one gets this in software and it’s being discontinued.

In what country? I have heard that this is required in Canada, but I've never heard of it in the US.

US. It's so uncommon though (in software engineering specifically) that they're apparently dropping it.

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#410

Post by Consultant32452 »

Nav_Panel wrote: post #395
Consultant32452 wrote: post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we're going to have a discussion about ending the requirement for a college degree or other seemingly arbitrary job requirements we have to understand why companies seek those things. The answer is that companies want to hire smart workers. It's fine to suggest that the degree requirement is wasteful, but I don't think we can expect employers to stop using that metric if we can't offer a better one. IQ is already…

I didn't mention anything about "ending the requirement for a college degree", my claim was that IQ does matter but other features matter just as much, and a college degree turns out to be a solid proxy for _many_ of those features. I also did not claim that the IQ test itself was biased. I'm not quite certain which of my claims you're responding to.

I'm responding to the actual context of this entire thread, not attempting to make a point by point rebuttal to anything you said.

If IQ isn't the only thing a college degree is a proxy for, that just means we'd need to offer companies even more than just IQ test if we want to remove the college degree requirement.

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