US Births Dip to 30-yr Low; Fertility Rate Sinks Further Below Replacement Level • Hacker News Board

Re: US Births Dip to 30-yr Low; Fertility Rate Sinks Further Below Replacement Level

#361

Post by dragonwriter » Fri, May 18, 2018, 12:32 AM UTC

loggedinmyphone wrote: post #352

dragonwriter wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Roman Catholic Church does not recognize, in a doctrinal sense (obviously, it does in a secular material sense) the existence of any other Christian Churches [0]; it takes the “Catholic” in its name quite seriously. From the doctrinal point of view, there are no non-Catholic Christians, just Catholics of various degrees of imperfection, is and everyone who intends to join Christianity, or to join someone else to…

It's not clear to me whether Rome accepts Christians who completely reject its authority. The central point of Lutheran Protestantism is that it's open source: anybody with a Bible can decide for themselves how to implement it without asking for permission. Of course there's value in a community of believers but the requirement is just to gather "two or more". I guess Protestants have a harder time deciding who's a C…

> It's not clear to me whether Rome accepts Christians who completely reject its authority

Rome absolutely accepts them as Christians.

It views them as wrong, but it does that for plenty of Christians that don't completely reject it's authority, too.

> The central point of Lutheran Protestantism is that it's open source: anybody with a Bible can decide for themselves how to implement it without asking for permission.

It would seem to me that the central point of Lutheran Protestantism is that there is a right way to implement Christianity, that right way is clear in Scripture, and having intermediaries between the believer and the Scripture is a barrier to the believer finding the truth in Scripture.

Lutheranism also seems generally pretty strongly defined by a particular opinion on what the right answers are, or at least a wide range of them, though somewhat internally divided by the degree of certainty ascribed to those answers.

Re: US Births Dip to 30-yr Low; Fertility Rate Sinks Further Below Replacement Level

#362

Post by skissane » Fri, May 18, 2018, 12:33 AM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #334

skissane wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Donatists claimed that sacraments were only valid if the priest who performed them was a faithful Christian. So if the priest was a heretic or grave sinner, the sacraments he performed were invalid. The Catholic Church declared that to be a heresy – a heretic or a sinner can still perform valid sacraments, provided the heresy doesn't involve a radically different understanding of the nature of the sacrament. So, from…

> So, from the viewpoint of traditional Catholic theology, Protestants are heretics, but their beliefs about baptism are close enough to the Catholic belief that their heresy doesn't invalidate their baptisms. (Different story for ordination and the eucharist, since Protestant theology on those topics is further away from Catholic theology.) This is largely an issue of apostolic succession; regardless of the theology…

Thanks. I agree with most of what you say.

> This is largely an issue of apostolic succession

There are two different cases here. Protestants differ in their ecclesiology; some retain belief in episcopal apostolic succession, others reject it. Of course, those Protestants who reject episcopal apostolic succession, there are (from the Catholic viewpoint) no valid bishops, and hence no valid priests, and hence no valid Eucharist. On the other hand, the Anglicans, and some (but not all) of the Lutheran churches, claim to have bishops with valid apostolic succession. In the case of the Anglicans, the Catholic Church has decided that their eucharistic theology is so different that their episcopal consecrations and ordinations are invalid as a result (Apostolicae curae, 1896). Presumably, the same judgement would apply to other Protestant denominations claiming episcopal apostolic succession also.

Re: US Births Dip to 30-yr Low; Fertility Rate Sinks Further Below Replacement Level

#363

Post by loggedinmyphone » Fri, May 18, 2018, 12:46 AM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #361

loggedinmyphone wrote: post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not clear to me whether Rome accepts Christians who completely reject its authority. The central point of Lutheran Protestantism is that it's open source: anybody with a Bible can decide for themselves how to implement it without asking for permission. Of course there's value in a community of believers but the requirement is just to gather "two or more". I guess Protestants have a harder time deciding who's a C…

> It's not clear to me whether Rome accepts Christians who completely reject its authority Rome absolutely accepts them as Christians. It views them as wrong, but it does that for plenty of Christians that don't completely reject it's authority, too. > The central point of Lutheran Protestantism is that it's open source: anybody with a Bible can decide for themselves how to implement it without asking for permission.…

Thank you, just to be clear: there is no obstacle to a Protestant sponsoring a child's baptism in the Catholic Church as parent or godparent?

Also I think you are right that many Protestants believe their opinions are clearly implicated by scripture, but it should be obvious on reflection that Scripture is not self-interpreting.

Re: US Births Dip to 30-yr Low; Fertility Rate Sinks Further Below Replacement Level

#364

Post by jacquesm » Fri, May 18, 2018, 12:48 AM UTC

Andre_Wanglin wrote: post #360

jacquesm wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hehe, there is no society on earth right now that never incorporated substantial numbers of outsiders. The relatively placid world that we live in today is in no way the historical norm. Hostile conditions are the norm. Ask the Palestinians, the Iraqi, the Iranians, the Panamanians, the Native Americans and Native Canadians and lots of people living elsewhere in Europe and the world (or anybody else for that matter,…

It is interesting that you listed a number of peoples who have at various times been subjected to genocide because of their initial accommodation of outside populations in your rebuttal of my affirmation that Japan refusing to compromise its stance on immigration is vital to its survival as a cohesive and distinct nation. >you use it or you lose it Please explain in direct language the point your deployment of this a…

> It is interesting that you listed a number of peoples who have at various times been subjected to genocide because of their initial accommodation of outside populations in your rebuttal of my affirmation that Japan refusing to compromise its stance on immigration is vital to its survival as a cohesive and distinct nation.

Exactly for that reason. Note how the Japanese have had their various wars of conquest in the past. At that time they had no problem with their 'stance on immigration'.

Re: US Births Dip to 30-yr Low; Fertility Rate Sinks Further Below Replacement Level

#365

Post by unepipe » Fri, May 18, 2018, 12:52 AM UTC

loggedinmyphone wrote: post #146

magic_beans wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These working people who can't find jobs are addicted to opiates or refuse to educate themselves. Dirt cheap illegal laborers slave over jobs a white American would never, ever do.

Any system that creates winners also creates losers.

Not true.

Re: US Births Dip to 30-yr Low; Fertility Rate Sinks Further Below Replacement Level

#366

Post by unepipe » Fri, May 18, 2018, 12:57 AM UTC

cheeseomlit wrote: post #127

dv_dt wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you're thinking of the historical details to say that in such a blase manner. The path to integration went through periods much more violent and contentious than anything we see today.

I'm aware of how immigrants were treated back then and I'm not condoning it. That still doesn't change the fact that they came from cultures that IMO were quite compatible with the USAs considering their common origin and values. I think the current situation in Europe, and other instances of mass migration in history, demonstrate that not all cultures are compatible with each other

"cultural compatibility"... Sounds like a concept created by someone who hasn't met people from very many cultures.

Re: US Births Dip to 30-yr Low; Fertility Rate Sinks Further Below Replacement Level

#367

Post by skissane » Fri, May 18, 2018, 1:03 AM UTC

loggedinmyphone wrote: post #338

skissane wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Donatists claimed that sacraments were only valid if the priest who performed them was a faithful Christian. So if the priest was a heretic or grave sinner, the sacraments he performed were invalid. The Catholic Church declared that to be a heresy – a heretic or a sinner can still perform valid sacraments, provided the heresy doesn't involve a radically different understanding of the nature of the sacrament. So, from…

I see, but in addition to a valid baptism aren't there required beliefs as well? Such as the immaculate conception and Papal infallibility, which Protestants would deny?

According to Catholic teaching, any validly baptised person is a Christian, regardless of their beliefs. Baptism is an indelible mark on the soul, like a spiritual membership card that you cannot destroy. Once you join, you can never really leave. Even if you convert to Islam, or become an atheist, you remain (in some spiritual sense) a Christian as long as you live. This is very different from the Protestant understanding of what it means "to be a Christian", which is based on a person's belief and (more importantly) the inner attitude of their heart.

Re: US Births Dip to 30-yr Low; Fertility Rate Sinks Further Below Replacement Level

#368

Post by skissane » Fri, May 18, 2018, 1:14 AM UTC

loggedinmyphone wrote: post #363

dragonwriter wrote: post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's not clear to me whether Rome accepts Christians who completely reject its authority Rome absolutely accepts them as Christians. It views them as wrong, but it does that for plenty of Christians that don't completely reject it's authority, too. > The central point of Lutheran Protestantism is that it's open source: anybody with a Bible can decide for themselves how to implement it without asking for permission.…

Thank you, just to be clear: there is no obstacle to a Protestant sponsoring a child's baptism in the Catholic Church as parent or godparent? Also I think you are right that many Protestants believe their opinions are clearly implicated by scripture, but it should be obvious on reflection that Scripture is not self-interpreting.

> Thank you, just to be clear: there is no obstacle to a Protestant sponsoring a child's baptism in the Catholic Church as parent or godparent?

Strictly speaking, there is a distinction between "sponsor" and "witness". The sponsor must be a Catholic, the witnesses can be non-Catholic Christians. However, in my personal experience (having had one child baptised Catholic, and the other will be baptised soon), everyone just collectively treats the "sponsor" and "witnesses" as "godparents". The parish just tells people "one godparent must be a Catholic". The sponsor is just the first godparent listed on the baptism certificate.

As far as parents go, technically there is no requirement that either parent be Catholic, or even Christian. A Buddhist couple could ask for their child to be baptised as Catholic. Now, in practice, priests will be extremely hesitant about fulfilling such a request, but strictly speaking it is allowed.

Re: US Births Dip to 30-yr Low; Fertility Rate Sinks Further Below Replacement Level

#369

Post by chr1 » Fri, May 18, 2018, 1:15 AM UTC

nostromo wrote: post #9

This makes me super happy and super scared. Happy because we have plenty of people on Earth and in the US. We don't need more people. Scared because so many of our economic structures assume infinite population growth.

There is no good reason to be happy about having less people.

Most of the earth is empty now due to desert belts, and we almost have the technology for terraforming them but do not have enough people to need that.

Losing people instead is really scary because that will mean we won't have large enough economy to afford large geoengineering projects, and will be caught in runaway effects of permafrost melting without possibility to do anything.

There are two things that give me hope that number of people on earth will keep increasing: first is technologies for increasing lifespan, and reproductive age, second is that subcultures that encourage not having children, will die off naturally.

Re: US Births Dip to 30-yr Low; Fertility Rate Sinks Further Below Replacement Level

#370

Post by souprock » Fri, May 18, 2018, 1:20 AM UTC

dionidium wrote: post #340

jacquesm wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are tech jobs everywhere. From Toronto to Paraguay and from SF to NYC and everywhere in between. Technology is everywhere , it is almost impossible to find a place where there are no tech jobs. But the bigger cities tend to have more of them and for better pay and Silicon Valley, New York, DC, Amsterdam, Berlin, London, and so on will have the best paid jobs but also the highest cost of living. Silicon Valley i…

Look, yes, obviously there are more jobs in the biggest cities. Why people insist on translating this into “there are no jobs anywhere else” is anybody’s guess. But it extends beyond preference or opinion and into objectively, verifiably, factually wrong territory with remarkable consistency. It makes the people who claim it look ridiculous, but they seem to think it makes them look — I don’t know what — something no…

Heh, the psychology underlying that opinion is fascinating.

Part of this could be a need to feel that one's own choice was rational or ideal. People make decisions based on emotion, and then invent reasons to justify the decisions.

A related factor could be the fact that a person could be compelled to move if they knew of a better place, but moving is a pain.

Another possibility is being unreasonably picky. Maybe somebody feels they need to be near all of the big internet giants, not that they can simultaneously work at them all.

A failure to consider cost-of-living may lead one to an unreasonable cut-off point. If a person does normal software development and sets a minimum salary of $300,000 then yes, there are "no jobs" in nearly every location.