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US Births Dip to 30-yr Low; Fertility Rate Sinks Further Below Replacement Level

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Re: US Births Dip to 30-yr Low; Fertility Rate Sinks Further Below Replacement Level

#261

Post by robotrout »

maxk42 wrote: post #227
robotrout wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right now, children is sort of theoretical for you. That's fine, as it's like that for everybody. Once you have them and have fallen in love with them, you'll find that their happiness is worth working things out with their mother, rather than breaking up. If you can't man up enough to put up with her shit (assuming there is any) and you do break up, the money will be going to your kids, who you'll love, and giving t…

I make a quarter million dollars. No, that money certainly won't be going to my kids. It's utterly ridiculous to pay that amount of money for child support for one child. This is essentially incentivizing my partner to break up with me: "Hey , if you dump him, you get a $60k check for the rest of your life for sitting on your ass." Incidentally, this is far more than she has ever made.

You are correct that it does not take $60K a year to raise a kid (or two or three).

There has been a meme for a couple decades now, that kids are so expensive and will cost millions of dollars to raise, etc. This meme is doubtless responsible for much of the reduced birthrate.

You can spend as much or as little as you desire on kids. I grew up shopping at Goodwill, but now I buy $40 shoes that my kids will wear for 6 months before outgrowing. That's my choice, as there are cheaper new shoes and much cheaper used shoes. Somebody else might buy their kids $120 shoes and complain to their friends how expensive their kids are. It's a shame that people like to promote this myth of the expense of kids.

If you can get over your trust issue with your GF, her not needing to give up a high paying job and being able to be home with the kids is a win. She won't feel like she's missing out on something and your kids get a much better childhood.

Re: US Births Dip to 30-yr Low; Fertility Rate Sinks Further Below Replacement Level

#262

Post by mieseratte »

dv_dt wrote: post #218
mieseratte wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I hope we can move to a much more sensible immigration system, similar to Canada's, for example. We have a decent immigration system in terms of getting the right kinds of advanced folks. The problem is we are also unwilling to do what needs to be done to stem the tide of unskilled illegal labor that flows into the nation.

I would posit that the people coming here illegally to work are actually the most entrepreneurial, hard working, can-do people that we should welcome into our society. Judging based on what current socio-economic status they're at is short sighted. You'll see the same thing expressed in HN regarding employees at declining companies, the most desirable employees leave earlier... Though I would add that doing it via a…

> I would posit that the people coming here illegally to work are actually the most entrepreneurial, hard working, can-do people

You're not at all wrong, I grew up with a lot of illegal friends. Good number of them have since gone on to become American citizens through hard work and determination and have built good lives for themselves.

Maternally, I'm a second generation American. My grandparents came to America post-WWII with nothing but an offer of employment, and ended up retired with the classic condo beach life. The classic story of rags to middle class American riches. There's a reason that's been the American tale, coming to a faraway land in search of prosperity takes drive. We filter for hard workers.

The problem is the black-market / underbelly aspects of this pool, and that very desperation and drive that drove them here has them put up with conditions we should be ashamed of be it in California, Iowa, or Appalachia. Businesses exploiting that cheap source of labor drive down the ability for those trying to live a basic American life.

Re: US Births Dip to 30-yr Low; Fertility Rate Sinks Further Below Replacement Level

#263

Post by magduf »

dragontamer wrote: post #250
magduf wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Chinese immigrants were not (and still are not) particularly religious, and certainly didn't have a religion that promoted extremism and placed them at odds with the existing inhabitants. Other Asian immigrants in the US were also either not religious, or (like with Koreans and Filipinos) adopted the same religion as the dominant culture. The fundamental problem, as I see it, is religion.

> and certainly didn't have a religion that promoted extremism Lets cut through the code words then and have a direct counterexample to what you're trying to say. Nigerians are primarily Muslims. They are also highly educated and among the most entrepreneurial immigrants to the USA. And while there's a "Nigerian prince" joke every now and then, they really are doing relatively well in the USA. Like, "better than Asia…

Ok, then what is the problem then? It's not racism; Nigerians are a lot darker than Arabs. Maybe it's a cultural problem, combined with religion: you never hear of Nigerian Muslims committing terrorist acts in the West. Islam is a big, big religion, and Muslims from some cultures simply don't have any kind of bad reputation (I'm thinking Malaysia here), while others certainly do.

So maybe it is religion, just not the whole religion, but rather particular sects. All Christians are not like the Pentecostals or the Mormons, and similarly all Muslims are not the same.

Re: US Births Dip to 30-yr Low; Fertility Rate Sinks Further Below Replacement Level

#264

Post by nitwit005 »

madamelic wrote: post #92
toomuchtodo wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Illegal immigrants usually do not (under the table, off the books unskilled labor), and are in the US in large numbers (millions). Not a sleight, just facts.

Also, a fact is that illegal immigrants are willing to work for dirt-cheap which subsidizes our produce price. :) https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/food/in-an-immigrat...

Do you genuinely believe people are going about thinking "I'm so glad for all this illegal immigration so that tomatoes are 20 cents cheaper"?

Re: US Births Dip to 30-yr Low; Fertility Rate Sinks Further Below Replacement Level

#265

Post by kaitai »

magduf wrote: post #195
jaredklewis wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Chinese immigrated to the US at a similar time as the Irish and Italians. The more than 3 million Chinese living in the US today seem plenty well integrated and I don’t think China and America are particular close in terms of culture.

The Chinese immigrants were not (and still are not) particularly religious, and certainly didn't have a religion that promoted extremism and placed them at odds with the existing inhabitants. Other Asian immigrants in the US were also either not religious, or (like with Koreans and Filipinos) adopted the same religion as the dominant culture. The fundamental problem, as I see it, is religion.

You may not have read a lot about the contentious history of Catholicism in the US. Until the 1960s, many Protestant Americans still considered Catholic Americans "not really American" because of their alleged allegiance to an extra-governmental power, the Church (and in particular the Pope). As recently as the 1950s Protestant-Catholic intermarriage was truly frowned upon in many parts of the country and Catholics were prohibited from joining various civic institutions.

Re: US Births Dip to 30-yr Low; Fertility Rate Sinks Further Below Replacement Level

#266

Post by kaitai »

jandrese wrote: post #194
jaredklewis wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Chinese immigrated to the US at a similar time as the Irish and Italians. The more than 3 million Chinese living in the US today seem plenty well integrated and I don’t think China and America are particular close in terms of culture.

And also Irish. Despite being white and christian the Irish faced considerable discrimination around the turn of the century.

As recently as 1998 I had a preacher tell my Irish Catholic friend that she still had a chance to accept Jesus and be saved. There is still a feeling that Catholics are not really Christian in some circles, and that was an important factor in justifying the discrimination you mention!

Re: US Births Dip to 30-yr Low; Fertility Rate Sinks Further Below Replacement Level

#267

Post by tropo »

coliveira wrote: post #116
0xB31B1B wrote: post #5

Student loans, housing costs, job prospects, healthcare, childcare. People are making a rational decision to avoid children they can’t afford. We as a society need to re-examine the causes of rising costs of essentials so reproduction is no longer financially infeasible.

The reason is that the US doesn't provide support for families. Childcare, maternity leave, health care support, these are things that could make it possible for working parents to have more kids. The US is doing just the opposite.

The US didn't have that stuff a century ago either, and the birth rate was higher. You may wish for those things, but they aren't required. Some EU countries have those things, and their birth rates are even lower than the US birth rate.

Those things actually contribute to the problem. They drive up taxes, causing more families to feel that they need two incomes and overtime and a bit more waiting.

Re: US Births Dip to 30-yr Low; Fertility Rate Sinks Further Below Replacement Level

#268

Post by randyrand »

0xB31B1B wrote: post #5

Student loans, housing costs, job prospects, healthcare, childcare. People are making a rational decision to avoid children they can’t afford. We as a society need to re-examine the causes of rising costs of essentials so reproduction is no longer financially infeasible.

low reproductive rates are good for global quality of life and the environment. High reproductive rates should not be encouraged.

Re: US Births Dip to 30-yr Low; Fertility Rate Sinks Further Below Replacement Level

#269

Post by loggedinmyphone »

kaitai wrote: post #266
jandrese wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And also Irish. Despite being white and christian the Irish faced considerable discrimination around the turn of the century.

As recently as 1998 I had a preacher tell my Irish Catholic friend that she still had a chance to accept Jesus and be saved. There is still a feeling that Catholics are not really Christian in some circles, and that was an important factor in justifying the discrimination you mention!

In fairness many Catholics don't accept Protestants as Christians either.

Re: US Births Dip to 30-yr Low; Fertility Rate Sinks Further Below Replacement Level

#270

Post by cjbprime »

jandrese wrote: post #194
jaredklewis wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Chinese immigrated to the US at a similar time as the Irish and Italians. The more than 3 million Chinese living in the US today seem plenty well integrated and I don’t think China and America are particular close in terms of culture.

And also Irish. Despite being white and christian the Irish faced considerable discrimination around the turn of the century.

"Being white"'s an interesting phrase to use, because I don't think Irish (or Italians at a different point) were considered white at the time they were being discriminated against here. It shows how much whiteness is socially constructed.
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