Hundreds of Bitcoin Wannabes Show Hallmarks of Fraud • Hacker News Board

Re: Hundreds of Bitcoin Wannabes Show Hallmarks of Fraud

#81

Post by [deleted] » Thu, May 17, 2018, 8:46 PM UTC

lend000 wrote: post #79

hudon wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> - Signed, someone who wishes they didn't dismiss Bitcoin the first time they heard about it. Ugh, that is so presumptuous. I've been in Bitcoin since the "Bitcoin 0.3" announcement on Slashdot. I was an engineer at Coinbase. I'm on 2 Bitcoin-related patents. I was reading about Ethereum when people were still learning about Bitcoin. I've tried really hard to see what can be done with cryptocurrencies and I've arriv…

I then find it difficult to believe that you cannot think of productive applications of cryptocurrencies. As someone who researches self organizing systems, especially in the network space, I have seen numerous applications of mesh network organization based on a blockchain-like decentralized ledger that adds a new dimension after well over a decade long plateau in development. Semi-centralized blockchains utilizing…

[deleted]

Re: Hundreds of Bitcoin Wannabes Show Hallmarks of Fraud

#82

Post by abalone » Thu, May 17, 2018, 8:47 PM UTC

whataretensors wrote: post #51

hudon wrote: post #6

- The space is littered with fraud. - Wallets have bugs that lose hundreds of millions of dollars - Energy consumption forecasted to hit 0.5% of the world’s electricity consumption by end of 2018 - Promoters yelling “decentralize everything” while exchanges, development teams and mining are all highly centralized - No legal use case found to date Blockchain is a parasite on society.

OP is proof that intelligent people aren't always creative or future looking.

OP is an ex-Coinbase engineer, so no. That's just a lazy dismissal.

Re: Hundreds of Bitcoin Wannabes Show Hallmarks of Fraud

#83

Post by ryanlol » Thu, May 17, 2018, 8:48 PM UTC

abalone wrote: post #78

ryanlol wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s like you’ve never dealt with chargebacks.

It's like you've never been ripped off by someone selling you a watch on an internet forum.

Infinitely easier to vet sellers than buyers.

Re: Hundreds of Bitcoin Wannabes Show Hallmarks of Fraud

#84

Post by mihaifm » Thu, May 17, 2018, 8:49 PM UTC

lawn wrote: post #46

lotyrin wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have counter examples? Anything using the currencies as stores of wealth or mediums of exchange seem to be better suited by traditional finance which are less volatile and capable of higher volume. Anything using the ledger as a distributed datastore seems like it would be better suited by a datastore that wasn't wrapped up in a currency ledger and uses a consensus algorithm less costly than proof-of-work.

Examples of what cryptocurrencies does better: * Donations to wikileaks. Paypal froze their account and there are tons of examples where they have done this without good cause. * Legal businesses like marijuana sellers, porn, escort services and gambling platforms have had trouble using and keeping payment services. Some have been forced to only accept cash payments as they couldn't accept credit cards. * A way to ac…

We'be in a crypto winter since January, basically a huge bear market. This is likely to attract a lot of negativity. I wouldn't worry too much about it, these are solid points.

Re: Hundreds of Bitcoin Wannabes Show Hallmarks of Fraud

#85

Post by roenxi » Thu, May 17, 2018, 8:56 PM UTC

teraflop wrote: post #72

kbody wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

- You could say that for cash and internet as well, but I hate it too that currently the majority of the space is overrun by scammers & useless ICOs. - As for wallet bugs: if you're talking about Ethereum or low-quality software projects yes, but for Bitcoin it's been a long time since that was an issue - Regarding power: setting aside all those sensationalistic headlines. Crypto-miners are a way that enable renewabl…

> Also compare that to the multiples of power used today by gold mining, or infrastructure that Bitcoin aims to replace. Based on DoE estimates of energy cost per ton of gold mined [1] and the current annual production of roughly 3000 tons/year, it looks like gold mining consumes an average of roughly 7 GW (assuming there have been no efficiency improvements since 1975). That's roughly equal to the power consumption…

But gold is energy un-intensive once mined. It sits there.

Bitcoin needs the mining network to keep consuming energy to show it is special, otherwise it is basically just a number. Eventually bitcoin creation ceases and the energy burned will be paid in the transaction costs.

Re: Hundreds of Bitcoin Wannabes Show Hallmarks of Fraud

#86

Post by abalone » Thu, May 17, 2018, 8:56 PM UTC

ryanlol wrote: post #83

abalone wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's like you've never been ripped off by someone selling you a watch on an internet forum.

Infinitely easier to vet sellers than buyers.

False. Random sellers on internet forums are not easy to vet at all. The whole point of chargebacks is you don't have to vet the seller.

Re: Hundreds of Bitcoin Wannabes Show Hallmarks of Fraud

#87

Post by hudon » Thu, May 17, 2018, 8:57 PM UTC

lend000 wrote: post #79

hudon wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> - Signed, someone who wishes they didn't dismiss Bitcoin the first time they heard about it. Ugh, that is so presumptuous. I've been in Bitcoin since the "Bitcoin 0.3" announcement on Slashdot. I was an engineer at Coinbase. I'm on 2 Bitcoin-related patents. I was reading about Ethereum when people were still learning about Bitcoin. I've tried really hard to see what can be done with cryptocurrencies and I've arriv…

I then find it difficult to believe that you cannot think of productive applications of cryptocurrencies. As someone who researches self organizing systems, especially in the network space, I have seen numerous applications of mesh network organization based on a blockchain-like decentralized ledger that adds a new dimension after well over a decade long plateau in development. Semi-centralized blockchains utilizing…

- Can you show me one of these blockchain-based mesh networks in production? How many users do they have?

- As for voting and trade records, how do you deal with the fact that developers can fork the chain and invalidate past transactions like they did with Bitcoin in 2010 and 2013, or like they did with Ethereum in 2016? Why do you trust the developers more than your own government? And if you live in an oppressive regime, what makes you think your government will allow your blockchain to be used for voting?

- If your government wants transparency, why don't they simply expose a read-only API to their database?

Re: Hundreds of Bitcoin Wannabes Show Hallmarks of Fraud

#88

Post by mihaifm » Thu, May 17, 2018, 8:58 PM UTC

johnpowell wrote: post #38

Liquix wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was definitely a substantial influx of new (often clueless) investors in the past 12-18 months.

When Bitcoin hit around 14K my mom had heard all about the rise on MSNBC/CNN. So she asked me how to buy bitcoin. She needed to replace her radiator. She had about 500 and needed 1200 so she thought it was a reasonable gamble. So I had her send the money to me and I told her I would invest for her. I did not.. But I did inform her that when it crashed I just stuck her money in my savings account. And nothing was lost…

Not sure what your point is here. Predicting price movements is not an easy task, even for experienced traders. If you bought at 14k and sold at 20k, you would've made money. Nobody really knows the direction the market is going, otherwise we would all be rich now. Some trades make better profits than others based on experience, but for the most of us it's just pure luck.

Re: Hundreds of Bitcoin Wannabes Show Hallmarks of Fraud

#89

Post by jeffreyrogers » Thu, May 17, 2018, 9:00 PM UTC

sygma wrote: post #60

tptacek wrote: post #45

In the end, the "reputable" ICO-backed companies will mostly (perhaps entirely) turn out to be no better. Enron was a real company that did real things. During the time it operated, hundreds of aspiring future Enrons were born in the penny stocks, took down a few thousand in profits, and died. Skeptics of Enron could have pointed to those overt frauds and said "sure, the space is littered with frauds, but look at Enr…

Interesting comparison, but I think it breaks fairly quickly. If Enron were in fact like Bitcoin, they could not have committed institutionalized and systemic accounting fraud. The books are fully open and transparent. It's fair if you think that Bitcoin will fail at becoming anything significant in the history of the Internet, but calling it a fraud seems unjustified.

I read the person you're replying to as talking about cryptocurrency backed companies, not cryptocurrencies like bitcoin in general.

Re: Hundreds of Bitcoin Wannabes Show Hallmarks of Fraud

#90

Post by hudon » Thu, May 17, 2018, 9:10 PM UTC

lawn wrote: post #52

hudon wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While it has speculative value [0], you can use it to buy stuff, but while doing so you will spend on exchange fees to convert in and out of crypto, you will use as much electricity for your transaction as 33 US households use in a day, you will subject yourself to liquidity risk and volatility risk [1] and you will have to wait for anywhere from ten minutes to a couple hours [2]. Calling this complicated, risky and…

You may not like it but dismissing an actual use case is just ignorant after the parent comment specifically asked for one. > but there are significantly better ways of achieving the same thing. There are no ways of accepting payments digitally without a third party. There is no "better way". > transactions on Visa, Apple Pay, or PayPal all get complete within seconds. 0-conf can be accepted within seconds. Also cred…

> There are no ways of accepting payments digitally without a third party.

1- I agree. Bitcoin is no exception here: I must buy Bitcoin through GDAX. Then my transaction must be confirmed by Bitmain. And they're all running software by Blockstream. That's 3 third parties that were trusted for my purchase.

2- 0-conf transactions are very risky for recipients, hence why exchanges require confirmations.

3- Credit card chargebacks is how the real world solved the fraud problem in the featured article. Can you please provide an equivalent article showing how businesses are suffering due to chargebacks?