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Hundreds of Bitcoin Wannabes Show Hallmarks of Fraud

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Re: Hundreds of Bitcoin Wannabes Show Hallmarks of Fraud

#71

Post by hudon »

lend000 wrote: post #61
hudon wrote: post #6

- The space is littered with fraud. - Wallets have bugs that lose hundreds of millions of dollars - Energy consumption forecasted to hit 0.5% of the world’s electricity consumption by end of 2018 - Promoters yelling “decentralize everything” while exchanges, development teams and mining are all highly centralized - No legal use case found to date Blockchain is a parasite on society.

- Signed, someone who wishes they didn't dismiss Bitcoin the first time they heard about it. Blockchain is a brilliant and revolutionary technology. Is cryptocurrency the killer app? Maybe, but in any case it's financing the development of decentralized projects which may solve difficult problems in the realm of self organizing machines, artificial intelligence, mesh networks, trustless systems, transparency, etc. It…

> - Signed, someone who wishes they didn't dismiss Bitcoin the first time they heard about it.

Ugh, that is so presumptuous. I've been in Bitcoin since the "Bitcoin 0.3" announcement on Slashdot. I was an engineer at Coinbase. I'm on 2 Bitcoin-related patents. I was reading about Ethereum when people were still learning about Bitcoin. I've tried really hard to see what can be done with cryptocurrencies and I've arrived at different conclusions than you have. I think you may need to ask yourself harder questions.

Re: Hundreds of Bitcoin Wannabes Show Hallmarks of Fraud

#72

Post by teraflop »

kbody wrote: post #40
hudon wrote: post #6

- The space is littered with fraud. - Wallets have bugs that lose hundreds of millions of dollars - Energy consumption forecasted to hit 0.5% of the world’s electricity consumption by end of 2018 - Promoters yelling “decentralize everything” while exchanges, development teams and mining are all highly centralized - No legal use case found to date Blockchain is a parasite on society.

- You could say that for cash and internet as well, but I hate it too that currently the majority of the space is overrun by scammers & useless ICOs. - As for wallet bugs: if you're talking about Ethereum or low-quality software projects yes, but for Bitcoin it's been a long time since that was an issue - Regarding power: setting aside all those sensationalistic headlines. Crypto-miners are a way that enable renewabl…

> Also compare that to the multiples of power used today by gold mining, or infrastructure that Bitcoin aims to replace.

Based on DoE estimates of energy cost per ton of gold mined [1] and the current annual production of roughly 3000 tons/year, it looks like gold mining consumes an average of roughly 7 GW (assuming there have been no efficiency improvements since 1975).

That's roughly equal to the power consumption of all Bitcoin mining. But of course Bitcoin can't replace gold, because the majority of gold mined is used for non-monetary applications.

[1]: https://www.energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2013/11/f4/gold-silv...

Re: Hundreds of Bitcoin Wannabes Show Hallmarks of Fraud

#74

Post by lawn »

sandworm101 wrote: post #66
lawn wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Examples of what cryptocurrencies does better: * Donations to wikileaks. Paypal froze their account and there are tons of examples where they have done this without good cause. * Legal businesses like marijuana sellers, porn, escort services and gambling platforms have had trouble using and keeping payment services. Some have been forced to only accept cash payments as they couldn't accept credit cards. * A way to ac…

If you think taking money for products via credit cards is difficult or expensive, you've got some surprises should you try to sell via cryptocurrencies. Security is a huge deal. Want to get hacked? Tell people you accept bitcoin payments. Put an interface on your website. Remember to bolt your server down to the floor with big long bolts. And the backup server. And the other backup. And all the little thumbdrives. C…

There are drawbacks to be sure. Yet you don't refute my examples.

> Nobody outside onionland handles commercially-significant crypto transactions.

I've bought computers, books, clothes, games, online services and made significant donations using cryptocurrencies. I have also received several refunds (they were priced in euros and so I received a matching amount in cryptocurrencies).

That's just an ignorant and wrong statement.

Re: Hundreds of Bitcoin Wannabes Show Hallmarks of Fraud

#75

Post by solean »

jMyles wrote: post #53
hudon wrote: post #6

- The space is littered with fraud. - Wallets have bugs that lose hundreds of millions of dollars - Energy consumption forecasted to hit 0.5% of the world’s electricity consumption by end of 2018 - Promoters yelling “decentralize everything” while exchanges, development teams and mining are all highly centralized - No legal use case found to date Blockchain is a parasite on society.

> No legal use case found to date Even if this were true, and it's obviously not, what about the illegal use cases? Aren't they important? Bitcoin has helped people gain access to a wide variety of medicines that the state has improperly and violently prohibited. That's not nothing. And if it can do that - if, in the face of such overwhelming opposition, this technology has aided people in need, then doesn't it stand…

People default to the idea that illegal == wrong.

Re: Hundreds of Bitcoin Wannabes Show Hallmarks of Fraud

#76

Post by mrgordon »

yks wrote: post #69
econochoice wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Despite all of this, I don't think we've hit peak blockchain fetishism yet. There's still a lot of room to make solved problems worse with a blockchain.

There is a lot of social capital to acquire by making solved problems worse (e.g. "reddit redesign") so blockchain will probably see much wider adoption soon. On the bright side, there will be a lot of social capital to acquire by "fixing blockchain" with revolutionary "centralised databases" afterwards :)

Yes I think some of the coins caught onto this with DPOS. Have a couple dozen block producers who will run fast servers and can be voted out. Then don’t worry about total decentralization and your performance is 100x the competition.

Re: Hundreds of Bitcoin Wannabes Show Hallmarks of Fraud

#77

Post by paulpauper »

hudon wrote: post #6

- The space is littered with fraud. - Wallets have bugs that lose hundreds of millions of dollars - Energy consumption forecasted to hit 0.5% of the world’s electricity consumption by end of 2018 - Promoters yelling “decentralize everything” while exchanges, development teams and mining are all highly centralized - No legal use case found to date Blockchain is a parasite on society.

"- Energy consumption forecasted to hit 0.5% of the world’s electricity consumption by end of 2018"

One can make the same argument about anything. "Look at all the fabric wasted on beanie babies that could be used for clothes" one could have argued in 1998. if Bitcoin is just a fad ,energy use will plunge due to difficulty decreasing. The energy consumed on mining represents a an input cost based on an expected return on investment, like energy spent on car manufacturing, for example. if the return falls, so will input costs because no one operates at a loss for long.

Re: Hundreds of Bitcoin Wannabes Show Hallmarks of Fraud

#78

Post by abalone »

ryanlol wrote: post #48
hudon wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While it has speculative value [0], you can use it to buy stuff, but while doing so you will spend on exchange fees to convert in and out of crypto, you will use as much electricity for your transaction as 33 US households use in a day, you will subject yourself to liquidity risk and volatility risk [1] and you will have to wait for anywhere from ten minutes to a couple hours [2]. Calling this complicated, risky and…

It’s like you’ve never dealt with chargebacks.

It's like you've never been ripped off by someone selling you a watch on an internet forum.

Re: Hundreds of Bitcoin Wannabes Show Hallmarks of Fraud

#79

Post by lend000 »

hudon wrote: post #71
lend000 wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

- Signed, someone who wishes they didn't dismiss Bitcoin the first time they heard about it. Blockchain is a brilliant and revolutionary technology. Is cryptocurrency the killer app? Maybe, but in any case it's financing the development of decentralized projects which may solve difficult problems in the realm of self organizing machines, artificial intelligence, mesh networks, trustless systems, transparency, etc. It…

> - Signed, someone who wishes they didn't dismiss Bitcoin the first time they heard about it. Ugh, that is so presumptuous. I've been in Bitcoin since the "Bitcoin 0.3" announcement on Slashdot. I was an engineer at Coinbase. I'm on 2 Bitcoin-related patents. I was reading about Ethereum when people were still learning about Bitcoin. I've tried really hard to see what can be done with cryptocurrencies and I've arriv…

I then find it difficult to believe that you cannot think of productive applications of cryptocurrencies.

As someone who researches self organizing systems, especially in the network space, I have seen numerous applications of mesh network organization based on a blockchain-like decentralized ledger that adds a new dimension after well over a decade long plateau in development. Semi-centralized blockchains utilizing proof-of-stake and other methods seem to be valuable ways to add transparency to certain government functions (such as voting), publishing trade records, and clearing transactions over an ACH-like network (which is currently monitored manually by the Fed and is a growing vulnerability in the global financial network). To dismiss the whole space is to lack vision, or perhaps to be dejected about not being in the financial position you could have been in given the early opportunity.

Re: Hundreds of Bitcoin Wannabes Show Hallmarks of Fraud

#80

Post by aaaaaaass »

mythrwy wrote: post #44

The anti blockchain sentiment on HN is something like the anti-Trump hysteria in the period leading up to/immediately after the election. Tons of grandiose "it's SO horrible" posts, tons of downvotes. I predict it will shake out about the same way also. Blockchain and bitcoin aren't going anywhere in the near future. Some people have, and will continue to have, a use (for whatever reason). The "I hates it precious!"…

I think this to. They probably have known about bitcoin since $1 and are trying to convince themselves and the world they were right not to buy.
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