College May Not Be Worth It Anymore • Hacker News Board

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#281

Post by paulclinger » Thu, May 17, 2018, 6:17 PM UTC

bluedevil2k wrote: post #170

VikingCoder wrote: post #7

I assert the expense of college is an awful burden to put on someone who must finance most of it through debt. It's a gamble. You can improve your odds of a happy outcome in that gamble by looking at the Student Loan Default Rate for any given major at any given college, and picking the best program for you (with the lowest default rate possible.) But if you are a child of parents who can finance your college? Absolu…

Make the college take a 10% stake in any loan taken out to attend that school. The colleges would be a lot more selective about who they let in (hint: not everyone) and what their students' majors were.

I like this idea; make it: "take last 10% stake in any loan", so they get their money back only after everything else is paid off.

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#282

Post by joncrane » Thu, May 17, 2018, 6:18 PM UTC

QuotedForTruth wrote: post #277

The statistics in this opinion piece are cherry picked to hell. "People who have dropped out of college — about 40 percent of all who attend — earn only a bit more than do people with only a high school education: $38,376 a year versus $35,256." A small difference between college drop out salary vs high school diploma salary only says that the key is to actually get a degree. half of a degree is worth much less than…

Well put.

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#283

Post by VikingCoder » Thu, May 17, 2018, 6:18 PM UTC

eanzenberg wrote: post #75

VikingCoder wrote: post #7

I assert the expense of college is an awful burden to put on someone who must finance most of it through debt. It's a gamble. You can improve your odds of a happy outcome in that gamble by looking at the Student Loan Default Rate for any given major at any given college, and picking the best program for you (with the lowest default rate possible.) But if you are a child of parents who can finance your college? Absolu…

I don't believe college should be free, and I believe students should be able to choose whatever major they want to. I believe we should do away with gov't backed loans for college which artificially increase enrollment into soft majors. Students should sooner than later learn to make informed decisions.

Sure, that's a good theory.

But in theory Risk Agencies will learn to assess risk. Credit Default Swaps getting AAA ratings shows they do not.

And Credit Agencies will theoretically learn that investing in a local community is good for everyone. But they haven't.

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#284

Post by alkarin » Thu, May 17, 2018, 6:19 PM UTC

shaftway wrote: post #171

aarongough wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't have a degree and honestly have never had any issues with recruiters or interviews for intermediate/senior 'software engineering' positions. I never represent myself as having a degree, but I don't go out of my way to point out my lack of degree either. Never once in an interview have I been asked about my education. One nice thing about software development positions is the interview process tends to be meri…

I don't have a degree and it almost never fails to come up. Ultimately I flunked out (for a variety of reasons). I've done a lot of A/B(/C/D/E) testing with my resume: - Don't include education - I'm asked about it. Every. Single. Time. - Include the years I attended college - Asked why I didn't finish. Every. Single. Time. - Include college in a misleading way - I did a summer extension program for 2 years while in…

Interesting. I also do not have a degree, and I'm pursing my associates part time while working full-time as a Junior Dev. However every job interview I've had people bring up my education, and it seems to always be the deal breaker for them. Despite the fact that I know in my personal work, I'm more capable than most of the people with their Bachelors in CS.

I feel like a lot of companies hiring software devs just filter out most of the resumes that don't mention having a Bachelors degree, simply because they can.

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#285

Post by throwawayjava » Thu, May 17, 2018, 6:20 PM UTC

nimbius wrote: post #224

speaking as a lead auto mechanic for a chain of shops, please for the love of god quit sending everyone to college. You're making it impossible to find anyone whos worked outside a starbucks. It takes on average nearly a year for us to do any meaningful hiring. We dont drug test, we dont do a background check in most cases, and we certainly dont care about credit scores. If we did, we wouldnt hire anyone at all. we j…

Checking in from an old auto town. Our region is exactly the opposite of yours. We are saturated with jobless gear-heads but there's HUGE demand in healthcare.

Shop techs around here make ~$10-15/hr, aren't guaranteed 40, no benefits, never get overtime, and there's no upward mobility unless you start your own shop (which for almost everyone requires taking out a big loan, and most attempts flop). Finding work is easy, but you can do MUCH better in the service industry or in healthcare. Hell, I have a relative who breeds dogs because it pays better than the auto work he can find after his last attempt at opening his own shop failed.

But the hospitals are starving! With a Bio grad degree, the hospitals would pay you to get into nursing. From there, with the degree, it's easy to get into a PA program. And there's insatiable demand for PAs.

> You wouldnt believe how many trades pay close to six figures that are incredibly understaffed

My general observation, at least in our region, is that six figures are a high water mark, not an average. Six figures for the last ten years is A LOT different from six figures for all thirty years. And even the last 10 years is wishful thinking. But again, the recently closed factory might've put a huge downward pressure on salaries throughout the trades in our region.

I think that "trades are the answer" is just as stupid as "college is the answer". Inserting "community" into "just go to college" doesn't change the fundamental problem with the advice, which is that it's suggesting a global heuristic for a problem that has varying solutions from region to region and especially from person to person.

It's not about "trades vs. white collar". It's all about knowing the (regional) labor market.

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#286

Post by maxk42 » Thu, May 17, 2018, 6:20 PM UTC

projectramo wrote: post #20

Thought experiment: would college be "worth it" if it were free? That is to say, would it be a valuable use of time and effort? I am sure there are people who can study hours of literature, philosophy, political science, math and physics on their own. I am sure they would write papers and find others to discuss them. For the rest of us there is only college. (You might ask: valuable to what end? Worth what? And that…

> would college be "worth it" if it were free?

I suspect the answer is "no" more frequently than you may expect.

The opportunity cost is four years of your life, four fewer years of full-time work experience, and the income that comes with that work experience.

When I was in high school all these recruiters came from various colleges to try and get us to sign up for their schools. I saw what almost none of my peers saw: They were salesmen trying to generate revenue for their business. They did not have my best interests in mind. They presented these lovely little marketing sheets describing how much money you'd make with a degree in X, Y, or Z. I realized then that I didn't know how much money was a lot or a little, but I had an idea the numbers would be rosy. So I started asking people I knew how much money they needed to live and how much they considered a lot. I began cold-calling people in various roles I was considering and asking if the numbers the college recruiters gave us were realistic for an entry-level worker with a degree and no experience. Big shock -- they weren't. In the end, I figured four more years of work experience would put me well ahead of my peers who went to college and it has. That was nearly two decades ago and I'm very well ahead of my peers now. There are some folks who just don't have the discipline to learn things on their own -- for them, maybe college is a good choice. There are others who need a degree by law to practice their chosen field of work. That makes sense for them too. But for the rest of us -- college may be considered harmful.

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#287

Post by VikingCoder » Thu, May 17, 2018, 6:22 PM UTC

cheeseomlit wrote: post #242

VikingCoder wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our current Student Loan Debts ARE absolutely devastating. If you knew that an applicant had a Full Ride Merit Scholarship to a good degree program, it would "mean less" to you? Can you explain that a little bit better?

They are devastating to the people who take them out, not to everyone around them. You are not required to take out a student loan, you are required to pay taxes no matter how high they are One applicant getting a full ride merit scholarship (or a small group of them) based on their own achievements is not going to devalue a degree. Giving everyone in your society a full ride scholarship based on nothing but their ex…

When students default on their student loans, does money just magically appear?

When someone declares bankruptcy, does money just appear?

Those things do hurt all of us. Costs go up. Insurance costs more. Interest rates go up. Taxes go up (if the program was federally backed.)

I am advocating for merit scholarships. Full ride. For a huge swath of people who demonstrate a reasonable level of merit.

I'm not handing money to someone who flunks all their classes.

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#288

Post by justin66 » Thu, May 17, 2018, 6:23 PM UTC

VikingCoder wrote: post #251

justin66 wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not to pick on them, but do we really need this many Art History Majors? You cannot calculate how many art history majors the world needs. You just need to trust people to act vaguely in their own interest, and society's interest, most of the time and to trust that things will work out. Consider the important exceptions to this approach, where we try to match the number of students to demand. You can sort of calcul…

If the student loan default rate is high, they are accepting too many. That's a metric that would work today. A metric that might work in the future is to look at employment and job satisfaction. > You just need to trust people to act vaguely in their own interest, and society's interest, most of the time and to trust that things will work out. Sure. And I want free college, and progressive taxation. I also advise th…

> If the student loan default rate is high, they are accepting too many.

It's fun to think about how screwed up a society would become if it did simpleminded, authoritarian things like reduce the number of seats for education students because teachers defaulted on their student loans at a higher rate than business students, and opened up a corresponding number of spots for business students. There are so many factors affecting that default rate other than society's need for graduates of a degree program...

Here's an idea: make sure people who are intellectually capable of succeeding in a degree program can choose the major they want. Support them financially if they need it. Full stop.

> I also advise that we do a far better job of publishing and thinking about career opportunities and satisfaction. Maybe even to the extent that schools should seriously consider whether it's responsible to accept X majors.

So much of what you're talking about already exists.

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#289

Post by VikingCoder » Thu, May 17, 2018, 6:24 PM UTC

John_KZ wrote: post #191

VikingCoder wrote: post #7

I assert the expense of college is an awful burden to put on someone who must finance most of it through debt. It's a gamble. You can improve your odds of a happy outcome in that gamble by looking at the Student Loan Default Rate for any given major at any given college, and picking the best program for you (with the lowest default rate possible.) But if you are a child of parents who can finance your college? Absolu…

Just in case you guys don't know, this is exactly how university works in a number of countries in Europe. There are few problems, but they're minor compared to the American model imo. As for people who don't get accepted, in a closed and healthy economy, there's literally never a shortage of jobs (at least pre-AI). There's always something that needs to be done and you can create training programs or job placements…

I've been contemplating that when a publicly traded company issues stock that they also have to issue some percentage to the government.

And then we set up tax structure to massively favor paying dividends to stock holders, thus including the government.

Thoughts?

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#290

Post by oh_sigh » Thu, May 17, 2018, 6:25 PM UTC

VikingCoder wrote: post #226

oh_sigh wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vets can easily make 100k+ in rural areas where the median wage is in the 20s or 30s. You could double the number of vet grads and vets would still be able to make a comfortable living.

With the median wage being 20s or 30s, what's the median debt? Do you know how much student loan debt vets have? https://www.studentloanplanner.com/veterinarian/ Also, I have several veterinarian friends, and about half of them are absolutely struggling financially. Do you have personal contact with some, just out of curiosity? And if you're curious, the suicide rate for vets is very high. We could argue the reasons,…

Yes, my sister is a vet outside of Raleigh.

Taking out a $400k loan for education seems like a bad idea unless you know you will be making 150-200+. My sister graudated with something like $150k debt, and it is fully repaid now(8 years after graduation) The mistake the lady in the article made is she picked basically the most expensive option and graduated with debt that is greater than 90% of her peers. She could have prevented her situation by, perhaps, going to a cheaper or in-state school.

And yes, vet suicide rate is high, but so is the suicide rate in rural areas where they frequently operate. If you aren't a canine/feline/companion vet, the suicide rate of their clients(farmers) is almost certainly higher than the suicide rate of vets.