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College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

nytimes.com

211–220 of 437 posts

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#211
post #12

The NYTimes republishes a variant of this articles almost every month https://www.google.com/search?q=site:nytimes.com+college+wor... The usual answer is "it depends"

Which is probably a good thing, since it will slowly beat into the minds of upper-levels at corps and recruiters that a College Degree shouldn't be the minimum bar applicants need to reach, and maybe some of these companies will start removing the "has degree" band reject filter.

I don't know. If an employer is clueless enough to have such a filter, it's probably best that I don't work for them anyway...

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Failed out of engineering= they didnt care I agree that most education should be learned on the job, but college is a filter to keep the lazy out of jobs that require the dedicated. Engineering was insane because they wanted people that would drop what they are doing to go to mexico with 7 hours notice. The dude that dropped out of engineering school is planning on fishing this weekend, hes not going anywhere his bos…

> Failed out of engineering= they didnt care I don't even know how to respond to this... my friends didn't fail out from a lack of effort. You also don't know this but all of my old friends are Mexican - so you are implicitly saying the reason they didn't succeed is because they are lazy Mexicans. I don't think you intended to take this stance. You likely got tricked with everyone else into believing in social constr…

Nah, it had nothing to do with your personal racism toward your friends for being Mexican.

If you didnt pass math and engineering, you didnt care enough.

Your friends treated college like high school or worse. If you did 100% of the homework, read the chapter before class, studied for tests, you wouldnt be failing out of college.

At worst case, the classes are hard enough you get a C or D in a class. But that isnt enough to get kicked out of college.

Lets be honest here, if you put those kinda hours into engineering school, you can expect to get As and Bs.

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#213
This article lacks any nuance. College will always be worth it if you have some combination of ambition, capability and intelligence necessary to couple to an industry (or industries) of interest. College was never worth it if you lacked that.

The big change that seems to happening is that a general purpose college education is less and less valuable in the market. This is a result of consolidation and specialization. Years ago, a general purpose degree could land you on the management track at the headquarters of the regional department store; now you need a specialized degree to even interest the recruiter at GlobX in Seattle/SFC/NYC.

The exception of course is: experience. "In God we trust; all others bring data" => "In reputable college degrees we trust; all others bring demonstrable experience". Demonstrable experience for a developer is easy: github.com. It's also easy for lots of other specialties.

A degree provides a claim of capability that varies with the degree provider. Putting [particle simulation code] on github.com (or whichever specialized site) provides a demonstration of capability without regard to degree.

Some employers will require a specialized capability that only a degree can provide (think GAAP accounting, which is insane/brilliant); some will search for the capability itself. It's a shifting continuum and a discussion between you and your kids; to say it's yes/no is to put on blinders in order to ignore a changing world.

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#214
post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>every year of college costs 1 year of salary This is point-blank wrong, unless you're only talking about elite private schools. Most state schools cost around 1-1.5 years of full-time salary, discounting room and board since you have to pay for somewhere to live independently of if you attend university. If your goal is to simply get a degree, you can do it for less than $50k (which is definitely still off compared…

You're missing opportunity cost. If you're in school full-time, you're not working full-time. That costs the salary you're not making and the experience you're not getting, on top of what you pay for school plus interest (because unless your parents are rich or you're That Counterexample, you're borrowing). In return, you go to school, which one hopes is worth the cost over the course of the rest of your life, howeve…

It isn't fair to include an opportunity cost in this calculation because yoy wouldn't have most of those opportunities without college.

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Failed out of engineering= they didnt care I agree that most education should be learned on the job, but college is a filter to keep the lazy out of jobs that require the dedicated. Engineering was insane because they wanted people that would drop what they are doing to go to mexico with 7 hours notice. The dude that dropped out of engineering school is planning on fishing this weekend, hes not going anywhere his bos…

> I agree that most education should be learned on the job, but college is a filter to keep the lazy out of jobs that require the dedicated. This is the heart of the issue, and I'm not sure you realized you stumbled upon it. First, you acknowledge the only way to "fail out" is to "not care". This itself shows that college doesn't prove capability or learning or anything objective. It only shows that you have to do th…

>You're filtering for someone who is mainstream and complacent; you're filtering for someone who won't question, let alone challenge, the groupthink.

Weird sentence in this big post, I felt it was out of place.

I never thought this was a thing in both college and industry. Everywhere Ive been encouraged you to challenge everything. The goal is to be correct by any means necessary. (Engineering school, I cant speak for other degrees)

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#217

The New York Times may not be worth it anymore :-) It annoys me how they conflate focused learning and investment returns. If they said "Cars may not be worth is anymore" because the best cars are beyond the reach of most people to afford and those people would be better off riding the bus. College is like this in other ways as well, when you don't have a car you are constrained to the jobs you can get that you can r…

I think it _can_ be an option generator. However, for some colleges and especially some majors, it ISN'T. That is something which many kids don't know, especially first generation college students who don't have parents who went there first and know the unspoken rules regarding this.

About 1/3 of the majors are NOT "option generators", and putting them in the same basket (esp. as regards if it's worth taking on debt to get it) is an error. One that an ethical society would do more to steer very young adults away from, or at least inform them of the difference between those two types of majors.

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#218
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is probably a good thing, since it will slowly beat into the minds of upper-levels at corps and recruiters that a College Degree shouldn't be the minimum bar applicants need to reach, and maybe some of these companies will start removing the "has degree" band reject filter.

I don't know. If an employer is clueless enough to have such a filter, it's probably best that I don't work for them anyway...

Sometimes you don’t have a choice, because you have a mortgage to pay and want to eat.

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Judging from recent news about no white day etc college can be a place to go and become deluded and converted to socialism. So maybe worse than pointless

White Day? You mean March 14th?

I think he's referring to the "Day of Absence" where white people were not supposed to be on campus. A white progressive professor dared go to work that day and they tried to destroy him for it. It's also a big problem that free speech is increasingly under attack at universities.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/01/opinion/when-the-left-tur...

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reading the article I thought to myself that it’s a crappy piece that oversimplifies the complex landscape and tries to draw sensationalist conclusions... but after reading the Tweeter thread by the very scientist who’s work is cited, the article looks intentionally false and a retraction worthy. Instead of saying that college is not worth it, why don’t we do MORE to make it free? Even if people don’t end up using th…

> Instead of saying that college is not worth it, why don’t we do MORE to make it free? you don't make things more cost effective by changing who pays for them. you just get more people taking advantage of the cost ineffective good.

The article states nothing of the cost inefficiency, that is cost of producing the good or service. Instead, the article tries to claim that the price of education makes it a questionable investment, given the monetary returns.

Higher education can and is being delivered at reasonable costs across much of the developed world, with many countries choosing to have taxpayers carry the burden of funding education.

This common-pool resource approach (that is non-excludable, but still rivalrous) to education does not prevent private education that exists as a private good (that is both excludable and rivalrous), but it does ensure a baseline.

As a society, we have decided that certain things should not be left to market forces, because either the outcomes are morally objectionable to the majority of the population (welfare for example), or we see a greater overall economic return on investment by doing it en mass (healthcare, education, etc).

Healthcare is especially interesting - if we leave it completely to market, we will likely have return of pandemics that are currently being kept at by via vaccinations and mass treatment. If we allow an economic driver to avoid this care, the diseases we largely think of as extinct can return.

Education can be thought of in the same view - if we provide everyone with a solid baseline, and support future growth regardless of economic background, it is likely that we will reduce the negative effects lack of education currently has on society. Removing the debts will also help and provide a huge social benefit, as well as spur additional economic activity.

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