College May Not Be Worth It Anymore • Hacker News Board

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#71

Post by facing_worlds » Thu, May 17, 2018, 4:31 PM UTC

vinceguidry wrote: post #47

Every modern society needs it's signaling mechanic, otherwise it becomes virtually impossible for people to want to take risks, eliminating all ladder access for the underprivileged. Signals only work if they're hard to fake. The expense of a college degree in both time and dollars perversely increases its utility as a signal. Of course, the price of a degree can only go so high before before people are unwilling to…

Instead of cost being the authenticator of the signal academic performance \ intelligence could be like it is in some european countries wherw college is low cost but admitance is based on high school performance.

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#72

Post by lev99 » Thu, May 17, 2018, 4:31 PM UTC

projectramo wrote: post #20

Thought experiment: would college be "worth it" if it were free? That is to say, would it be a valuable use of time and effort? I am sure there are people who can study hours of literature, philosophy, political science, math and physics on their own. I am sure they would write papers and find others to discuss them. For the rest of us there is only college. (You might ask: valuable to what end? Worth what? And that…

General thoughts on the advantages of institutional learning.

* Experts know the relevant information, and learning from them is the best way. Colleges provide access to experts.

* A good lecture can be just as informative or more informative than a good book.

* Lectures can include information from published journals that haven't made it to textbooks yet. There is too many published journals to know what is the most relevant/interesting in the field without being an expert, and lecturers can provide required background information to understand bleeding edge ideas often written in ways off-putting to novices.

* Many people study harder if they know they will be tested on their knowledge.

* Assignments provide feedback on your work.

* Math is something best learned in groups for most of the population.

* Social interactions with other dedicated students can be encouraging.

* College provides many resources that help aid studying & research. From libraries to uranium centrifuges.

I'm not sure college is the best use of four years for everyone, but I am sure that it does provide real value.

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#73

Post by adamnemecek » Thu, May 17, 2018, 4:31 PM UTC

America needs apprenticeships. E.g. in Czech Republic you can attend these vocational schools instead of high schools and there's less of a stigma to attending them. There are schools for programmers, nurses, car mechanics.

Particularly the programmer ones let you do learn idk, basic networking, 3d programming and some basic entrepreneurship (accounting etc).

I believe it's one of the reasons it has the lowest unemployment rates in EU https://qz.com/index/1046172/this-country-has-the-lowest-une...

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#74

Post by dilap » Thu, May 17, 2018, 4:33 PM UTC

mkirklions wrote: post #53

anoncoward111 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's already a shame that the answer isn't 100% yes, 100% of the time. back in the 70s, tuition was payable with a summer job and job prospects were decent enough despite geopolitical and economic headwinds these days, the same problems plague the job market, but every year of college costs 1 year of salary, unless you qualify for stackable forms of financial aid

People hate when I talk about working fulltime in the factory on the midnight shift and going to school fulltime. I didnt get 'the college experience'. But I didnt have any college debt, I became a hardened adult that didnt cry when plant people got pissed. I dont complain. If something needs to get done, I do it. Graduated in 3 years with my chem engineering degree at age 21. People will always complain about someth…

Not saying it's true for you, but everyone I knew at college that was working full-time was in my opinion getting far less out of college than they would have. You need time to ponder, to explore, to be curious.

Having to grind insane hours just to get in the game might be workable for the very dedicated and tough, but it's certainly not an optimal experience, and something we should strive to make not necessary.

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#75

Post by eanzenberg » Thu, May 17, 2018, 4:33 PM UTC

VikingCoder wrote: post #7

I assert the expense of college is an awful burden to put on someone who must finance most of it through debt. It's a gamble. You can improve your odds of a happy outcome in that gamble by looking at the Student Loan Default Rate for any given major at any given college, and picking the best program for you (with the lowest default rate possible.) But if you are a child of parents who can finance your college? Absolu…

I don't believe college should be free, and I believe students should be able to choose whatever major they want to. I believe we should do away with gov't backed loans for college which artificially increase enrollment into soft majors.

Students should sooner than later learn to make informed decisions.

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#76

Post by Bekwnn » Thu, May 17, 2018, 4:34 PM UTC

jellicle wrote: post #59

optimuspaul wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are still many colleges that you cost less than a years salary. Other than that nitpick I agree. Economics aside I think that college doesn't actually prepare people for working in the real world. But the only thing that really does that is actually working in the real world.

I think previous commenter is saying every year of full-time college costs you a year of salary, in addition and on top of any tuition or other expenses it may cost you. Few students manage to work full-time and make real progress towards a degree.

Not to mention if they're working fulltime they're forfeiting a large part of the value of the degree. Half or more of the value I got from my degree involved out of class activities.

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#77

Post by mkirklions » Thu, May 17, 2018, 4:34 PM UTC

nicholas73 wrote: post #68

mkirklions wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People hate when I talk about working fulltime in the factory on the midnight shift and going to school fulltime. I didnt get 'the college experience'. But I didnt have any college debt, I became a hardened adult that didnt cry when plant people got pissed. I dont complain. If something needs to get done, I do it. Graduated in 3 years with my chem engineering degree at age 21. People will always complain about someth…

And where is that factory now?

Still in Romulus Michigan

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#78

Post by cheeseomlit » Thu, May 17, 2018, 4:34 PM UTC

VikingCoder wrote: post #7

I assert the expense of college is an awful burden to put on someone who must finance most of it through debt. It's a gamble. You can improve your odds of a happy outcome in that gamble by looking at the Student Loan Default Rate for any given major at any given college, and picking the best program for you (with the lowest default rate possible.) But if you are a child of parents who can finance your college? Absolu…

The tax increases you would need to sustain a system like that would be absolutely devastating. Also, college degrees would mean a lot less if they're free- devaluing them for people who actually paid for them

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#79

Post by NicoJuicy » Thu, May 17, 2018, 4:34 PM UTC

anoncoward111 wrote: post #11

paulpauper wrote: post #2

The NYTimes republishes a variant of this articles almost every month https://www.google.com/search?q=site:nytimes.com+college+wor... The usual answer is "it depends"

it's already a shame that the answer isn't 100% yes, 100% of the time. back in the 70s, tuition was payable with a summer job and job prospects were decent enough despite geopolitical and economic headwinds these days, the same problems plague the job market, but every year of college costs 1 year of salary, unless you qualify for stackable forms of financial aid

Not in Europe

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#80

Post by mythrwy » Thu, May 17, 2018, 4:34 PM UTC

College is usually worth it but needs a reboot for this to really be true now.

Useless and wasteful bureaucracy is responsible for much of the increased expense. Why should students be saddled with years (or decades) of debt to pay for pension seeking, position protecting goof offs to waste time and resources? That makes no sense at all.

Plus the "education" seems to have deviated somewhat into political indoctrination to the point some students come out confusing the two. That doesn't help.

So ya, if colleges would get back to the basics of a sane mandate and operate efficiently it would be fantastic. "Free" college doesn't help because on the current trajectory, the parasitism will expand to slurp up an infinite amount of provided resources, and indoctrination will continue to grow at the expense of education.

I'm not a fan of bootcamps in general, but something along those lines, a group of people fed up with the nonsense and starting over seems could possibly produce credentials that actually had worth other than being a (largely social) signal. And presumably outside the current system these would have to be affordable.